Open Thread

Open Thread 2019 (#3)

The Open Thread is a place for open discussion among my readers. Post anything you feel like sharing! From now on, the Open Thread will no longer be monthly. Instead, there will be a new Open Thread whenever it is adequate. The stage is yours. Go ahead! Note that there is also an Open Thread on Aaron S. Elias’s site.

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53 thoughts on “Open Thread 2019 (#3)

  1. As a guy that spent several months in the pick up stuff and only recently adopted a much more red pill view, i was wandering if all those concepts of “acting alpha” that often puas speak about have place.
    I already seen aaron saying that an alpha is basically a guy that has his things together and that is a good prospect but i was thinking if there is even a distinction between alpha and beta behaviors and if yes, how much do they influence if at all your value among the other factors

    1. “I already seen aaron saying that an alpha is basically a guy that has his things together and that is a good prospect”

      I seriously doubt that Aaron has ever said this, and that is not at all how I would describe an Alpha. It has been said around these parts that having your life together and thus being a good prospect are prerequisites for attracting a long-term partner. On the positive side, these are things within your control.

      As far as alpha vs beta behaviors go, do you think it really matters how alpha you act if you’re a broke version of Danny Devito?

    2. An “alpha” can get laid based on looks alone. They can be broke and have a string of pussy.

    3. I think a better question to ask isn’t whether such and such trait or behavior is alpha or beta, but rather what will allow you to get quality consistent lays? This horse has been beat to death around here. If there are too many limiting factors that are out of your control, consider escorts.

    4. So basically you are saying that worrying to such things is a waste of time considering their small impact if any?

    5. Short summary:

      – Acting alpha is a symptom of getting laid, not the cause.
      – The more you get laid, the more you act alpha

      (False correlations and causality mix-up coming up)

      – Witnessing these, some idiots figured out that if you act more alpha, you’ll get laid more. Hint, you won’t.

      HOWEVER: You will get a lot more false positives.

      If you do learn to act more alpha (i.e. faking the symptom without having the status, looks, etc) you will get a lot of false-successes.

      More girls will pay sexual attention to you… more girls will give you a chance of getting somewhere… So this is the nasty trick that gets you hooked on “hey, this acting alpha and fake it till you make it might actually work!”

    6. Explanation why this happens:

      Human females look at symptoms of traits in order to decide whether to give you a chance. If you look/act like you have status, they are more likely to give you a chance to prove you do actually have the status. They don’t actually bang you until they confirm it’s not an act. So it’s just a false positive where you waste both her time and your time.

      Put in other words… if you don’t have the markings of status (or whatever is attractive to her), she won’t even give you a chance. She will save your time by not letting you go past step 1.

      When you fake the markings, all you do is waste both her time, and your time… that’s it. You just prevented her from cutting you off early on. But she’s still gonna cut you off if you don’t actually have the goods and are just acting.

    7. To illustrate a different way… It doesn’t have to be about status. Let’s say you act as if though you get laid a ton.

      A girl who’s horny and wants to get laid is going to get curious about that. If you’re convincing in the act. But she’s just going to get curious (or more likely to), she’s not more likely to fuck you. Make sense?

      This is proven by the fact that nobody has ever demonstrated to improve their % of lays using that crap… they always talk about the increase in other positives (i.e. false positives).

    8. That was a very good answer thank you.

      So something like “dont let girls take advantage of you” is something you would do but that wouldnt add to your attractiviness? For example: girls often have beta orbiters that do things for them. If you refuse to become one is she going to think ” wow this guy has balls” or ” what a rude loser, fuck him” ?

    9. @Lucas:
      It’s merely a matter of self-respect. Your mind is too much revolving around “getting laid”.

    10. To add to Alek’s point:

      It takes at least as much time to become a good faker, as it does to actually create the circumstances that effectively give you status. In other words, you might as well start working on your Looks, Money and Status instead of Mystery-Method-Style try to fake having things you don’t have/ you aren’t.

      That being said, if you get to have status after say 5 years of work, nobody will flip a switch and you’ll “act alpha” all of a sudden. Bill Gates has money and status (bad looks though) but still acts dorky. I couldn’t take him serious in a bar. Like, he couldn’t trash me, because he’s a fucking weirdo.
      So, certain RSD concepts like “the one who reacts less in a conversation is more alpha” do have validity, but they’re the (necessary) little icing on the cake. Get the cake baked first.

    11. So something like “dont let girls take advantage of you” is something you would do but that wouldnt add to your attractiviness?

      This is where the differentiation between attraction and interest comes on 🙂 One of the main sources of faulty reasoning and conclusions in PUA arose from the fact that they conflate interest and attraction into one thing. In other words, they see every form of interest as a sign of attraction. But interest is not attraction… They’re related phenomena, but not the same.

      To speak to your specific example… If you don’t take crap from girls… her interest is likely to rise, not her attraction.

      What does this mean?

      Since not-taking shit from girls and being picky is a sign that you have higher-than-average value as a man… it’s likely to pique her interest in whether you are a potential mate.

      That’s all it does… piques interest. If its a behaviour you learned to display conciously in order to pique interest from chicks (and thinking it’s causing attraction), all you did was waste both her time and your time.

    12. As the saying goes most convincing lie is a half-truth.
      In its most simple form some of PUA stuff is actually true. For example man has to show direct interest first without anxiety which requires some inner game and freedom from outcome (TM).
      But that is about it. PUAs then pile up bunch of made-up stuff on simple truths in order to sell their material. Whats worse they tell you are better off practicing their nonsense than actually working on your money, looks and status.

    13. Whats worse they tell you are better off practicing their nonsense than actually working on your money, looks and status.

      That’s the worst part. I feel like these assholes robbed me of my youth. It’s why I hate them (and other lie-peddlers so much).

      I shudder to think where I would be today if I spent my teens and early twenties working on LMS instead of that game crap. I only got it in my late twenties and went-on an LMS-raising crusade then…

      I achieved a solid amount, can’t complain… but I just can’t imagine how much more I’d have achieved had I started a decade earlier, instead of wasting a decade on the game bullshit (i.e. behaviour-based crap).

    14. As neutral pointed out, it actually takes AT least as much time to become a good faker (or develop the behaviour of a succesfull person without being one) as it takes to ACTUALLY become one.

      In my case getting the real thing was way faster…. waaaaaaay waaay faster. In other words to develop 10% of the behaviours of a guy who’s a 7 in status… it took me like 10 years. Actually getting to a 7 in status took me like 5 years, and a lot of the behaviours flowed from it naturally. Not all though…

      My behaviour isn’t as “alpha” or let’s say “indicative” of being a 7 in status as someone who’s been a 7 longer… but that’s another thing… it doesn’t matter.

      Just like faking the behaviour of a 7 means nothing when she finds out you’re actually a 4… The same is true in reverse… Chicks initially dismiss me as a 5 because I act like a 5… but once they find out i’m actually a 7 (my real actual status/accomplishments, they act accordingly anyway).

      So what matters is your actual level in the end, because the chick always finds out, and acts according to your real actual level anyway.

    15. Everything is a random process including mens’ attractiveness towards girls and all of pickup in general. All you can do are things that makes you attractive to the vast majority of girl and then you can ask as many girls as possible in the probability that some will stick. It’s a numbers game. All this alpha and beta is nonsense. It doesn’t exist. Alpha and beta theory is like fundamental and technical analysis in the stock market. Both don’t work consistently over time. Trying to see patterns of behavior where none exist in a random process is a fools errand.

    16. Question For Alek:

      What’s your opinion on getting in-person coaching via a Dale Carnegie training courses and the like? (I know there are books/DVD’s,but obviously none of that is ever going to be as good as getting an actual qualified teacher with you to address your specific problems and circumstances)

      I don’t just mean in terms of learning transferable skills for pickup(though I’d be interested to hear about that as well),but for helping you to become more successful in life in general. Being Charismatic helps obviously.

      Input from others is welcome as well.

    17. @maou, I had some real life stuff to handle, so I didn’t finish my train of though… what I was going to say next is relevant to your questions, i’ll continue it now…

    18. (Continued 1)

      Now, when I say wasted a decade of my life due to these dumbassess selling a lie… I don’t mean PUAs. I mean all of fucking society (everyone that sells the lie that attraction is about behaviour). I was never a PUA even at my dumbest, youngest naive self. In fact we made fun of PUAs.

      What people might not realize is that PUAs were always a joke, even in their heyday. The “seduction community” was always a wider community for “men’s improvement with the goal of increased success with women”.

      It preceded PUAs, and even when they were at their peak, they were never more than 30%. The other part of the community was guys who had a more rounded approach.

      The idea was that you would improve yourself (your behaviours) to become more attractive to women. Focusing on things like supposedly developing charisma, conversational skills, influence and leadership abilities etc…

      But that is also a scam. The whole notion of becoming attractive through modifying behaviour is a scam…. (at least in terms of bang for your buck).

    19. (Continue 2a)

      And this is where all of this ties into that other discussion about the difference between the pills.

      – The mainstream is this huge set of lies about gender dynamics and the true nature of women

      RedPill comes in, and exposes some of these lies… it talks about hypergamy, the fact that the same girl who pretends to be a prude with you will bang a chad in 3 minutes in the club bathroom (most girls would). Talks about provider vs chad.

      The redpill community calls the chads “alphas”… And this is where the problem with the redpill community. It’s almost like the perfect “controlled opposition” to the mainstream… because it makes you feel like you’re in the know and you’ve escaped “the matrix” of the mainstream…

      But it just tricks you to stay in the mainstream matrix… because the BIGGEST secret about women isn’t the provider/alpha/hypergamy thing… THE BIGGEST lie that society sells to men is that women care about your personality and behaviour.

    20. (Continue 2b)

      You approach a chick, she rejects you:

      PUA: You must have said the wrong thing, made the wrong move
      Feminist: You must have said the wrong thing, made the wrong move
      Mainstream: You must have said the wrong thing, made the wrong move

      You have a low success rate

      PUA: You need to change your thinking, women can “tell” you have bad thoughs, and it’s coming across in your energy, work on your inner game

      Feminist: You need to change your thinking, women can “tell” you have misogynistic though, and it’s coming across in your energy, work on understanding women/feminism better

      Mainstream: You need to change your thinking, women can “tell” you have bad thoughs, and it’s coming across in your energy, work on your demeanor and how you come across, read some self-help books

  2. What further literature regarding the topics #love, #life, #relationships can you recommend? I’ve read your books, I’ve read “The rationale male” by Rollo Tomassi, I’ve also read “No more Mr. Nice Guy” by Robert A. Glover. Right now I am trying to read “Models” by Mark Mansion, although I find it rather bloated…

    1. @Sleazy

      Something on intergender dynamics and the social and psychological underpinnings of intergender relations.

      Whatever you can recommend 😉
      It is difficult to see through the vast amount of books regarding that subject…

    2. You could try “Book of Pook”. It’s weirdly written but you get used to it. It discusses self-improvement and gender relations. If you don’t want to read all of it, at least read “15 lessons “… The epub version is located here:

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/czzcq6rio252c1c/Book%20of%20Pook%2C%20The%20-%20Pook.epub?dl=0

      Another book is “Gendernomics” which provides an economic analogy to inter-sexual relations/dynamics:
      https://www.amazon.com/Gendernomics-Black-Label-Logic/dp/1520743750/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1549812171&sr=8-1&keywords=gendernomics

  3. I have a suggestion for aaron:

    Why dont you make a top 10/20/whatever , or the must read posts list?

    I think this could be very useful for newcomers

    1. Such a top X list would depend a lot on the reader. However, I intend to put up an index sometime this year, which should make navigating the blog a lot easier.

    2. You could also navigate the forum. Theres not as much activity as there used to be, but there are years of posts there for you to read. The search function works pretty well too. Almost all of the most common questions and topics you might come up with have been addressed there.

  4. AI seems to be making its way in HR field. Amazon created an automated system for candidate recruitment based on CV text mining. Note that recruitment is a phase in which most promising candidates are picked from a wide candidate pool and invited for interviews and more thorough testing.

    The AI system had to be ditched because it had strong preference for men:
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/10/amazon-hiring-ai-gender-bias-recruiting-engine

    1. Yeah, they are blaming it on “faulty input data”…. because the algorythms looked at past CVs and most were male, the AI supposedly skewed male. I wonder if thats true or if they are making up excuses because male applicants actually had superior cvs?

      IIRC in 2017 the australian civil service tried gender blind hiring and it turned out men had better qualifications than women, so of course they had to ditch the gender blindness.

  5. Hey everyone, I would greatly appreciate some advice on what I could possibly improve on regarding getting women from night clubs.

    Positive aspects about myself:
    -Weightlifting for over two years, many people have complimented me on my physique
    -Decent facial aesthetics with strong jawline, beard growth
    -Good sense of fashion
    -Good social skills

    Potential negatives:
    -Height at 5’9, I am taller than most girls in the club but many guys are 6’2+
    -Race
    -Not overly extroverted

    I have been following the advice from Minimal Game and Club Game. As I enjoy indie rock and drum and bass, I have started going to these types of clubs and bars. I am incredibly selective with the girls I approach and only go for the ones who look like they are receptive. Many of these girls are glad to speak to me regarding incredibly basic shit and don’t freak out when I touch them. However, whenever I suggest something such as leaving the dancefloor to go to a quieter area of the bar, they always refuse.

    While I don’t want to get too analytical, I am curious as to whether I’m “doing anything wrong”.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. I’m commenting as a guy who never got past that sticking point… I was never motivated enough to… because I reached a satisfying level of success through social-circle/status…

      The sticking point you’re describing is something that happens when it’s a mix of 2 things:

      1) She’s not interested enough
      2) The invite is too blunt

      Like, there is a way of saying let’s go somewhere more private that’s almost like saying “want some fuk”, and chicks go noooooo on autopilot, even if they’re interested. I’m saying this as a guy who never got past this sticking point… so i might be completely wrong.

    2. All your problems probably can be solved by casting a wider net. That is, until you learn to spot available girls for real. Then you can be selective.

      Test the waters more. (Club Game) My suggestion is that you become even more direct in your statements and weed out uninterested girls sooner. But your milage will vary.

    3. Thanks for your comments guys.

      Don: Is it possible for most (90%+) girls in the club to be uninterested? In my country, I rarely see makeouts and pulls occurring, especially between strangers. Most guys (admittedly they’re dressed like dog shit) don’t get any approach invitations from girls, who seem like they would rather be taking photos to put on Instagram.

      It would also be amazing if Aaron could give his two cents on this. As far as I’m aware, Club Game was released in 2014. Is it reasonable for me to assume that while this strategy is still useful, its effectiveness has decreased because of social media? How should I adapt?

      Just trying to get some realistic expectations here (Not PUA garbage of “I pull models every time I go out”).

      🙂

    4. I don’t know anything about your country. So, my comment is even more valid. Cast a wider net and you’ll know for yourself whether 90%+ girls are uninterested or interested. If it’s like any other country, 90%+ girls are horny in a club. But your milage may vary.

  6. I have a problem. I am interested in how you guys manage it. I am a Face and Pussy man. While girls faces don’t pose a problem their pussies typically smell. How do you manage this problem?

    1. I get what you mean… but for me it’s a 2 second though. If the pussy is nice, I focus on it, like wow that’s nice. If it isn’t, I just find my focus shifts on what is nice… like the perfectly flat and lickable belly or whatnot.

      I hope you didn’t jinx me and now I start focusing on the pussy too, lol. Coz I’m guessing that’s what it is. It’s just that you have a negative focus. Like “Don’t think of a pink elephant”.

    2. If her pussy stink, send her to the bathroom bro.
      Is it so difficult?

      (And if she doesn’t want to, either accept it or throw her out. There’s prostitutes for near perfect sex)

    3. If her pussy stink, send her to the bathroom bro.

      I have done that but that always makes the girl uncomfortable.

    1. Honestly, I don’t want Aaron to make a mistake and write a book on online dating. Online dating is still plagued by the same problems as before. Even the best computerized dating system, Tinder, doesn’t have too many hot girls that are easily approachable. Guys are barking up the wrong tree when they date online.

    2. I recall him saying working on a draft about this argument. Anyway, online dating in my opinion is tougher than club game but it could be convenient because of its 0 marginal cost ( if you value your time 0)

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