Open Thread

Open Thread 2019 (#3)

The Open Thread is a place for open discussion among my readers. Post anything you feel like sharing! From now on, the Open Thread will no longer be monthly. Instead, there will be a new Open Thread whenever it is adequate. The stage is yours. Go ahead! Note that there is also an Open Thread on Aaron S. Elias’s site.

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165 thoughts on “Open Thread 2019 (#3)

  1. As a guy that spent several months in the pick up stuff and only recently adopted a much more red pill view, i was wandering if all those concepts of “acting alpha” that often puas speak about have place.
    I already seen aaron saying that an alpha is basically a guy that has his things together and that is a good prospect but i was thinking if there is even a distinction between alpha and beta behaviors and if yes, how much do they influence if at all your value among the other factors

    1. “I already seen aaron saying that an alpha is basically a guy that has his things together and that is a good prospect”

      I seriously doubt that Aaron has ever said this, and that is not at all how I would describe an Alpha. It has been said around these parts that having your life together and thus being a good prospect are prerequisites for attracting a long-term partner. On the positive side, these are things within your control.

      As far as alpha vs beta behaviors go, do you think it really matters how alpha you act if you’re a broke version of Danny Devito?

    2. An “alpha” can get laid based on looks alone. They can be broke and have a string of pussy.

    3. I think a better question to ask isn’t whether such and such trait or behavior is alpha or beta, but rather what will allow you to get quality consistent lays? This horse has been beat to death around here. If there are too many limiting factors that are out of your control, consider escorts.

    4. So basically you are saying that worrying to such things is a waste of time considering their small impact if any?

    5. Short summary:

      – Acting alpha is a symptom of getting laid, not the cause.
      – The more you get laid, the more you act alpha

      (False correlations and causality mix-up coming up)

      – Witnessing these, some idiots figured out that if you act more alpha, you’ll get laid more. Hint, you won’t.

      HOWEVER: You will get a lot more false positives.

      If you do learn to act more alpha (i.e. faking the symptom without having the status, looks, etc) you will get a lot of false-successes.

      More girls will pay sexual attention to you… more girls will give you a chance of getting somewhere… So this is the nasty trick that gets you hooked on “hey, this acting alpha and fake it till you make it might actually work!”

    6. Explanation why this happens:

      Human females look at symptoms of traits in order to decide whether to give you a chance. If you look/act like you have status, they are more likely to give you a chance to prove you do actually have the status. They don’t actually bang you until they confirm it’s not an act. So it’s just a false positive where you waste both her time and your time.

      Put in other words… if you don’t have the markings of status (or whatever is attractive to her), she won’t even give you a chance. She will save your time by not letting you go past step 1.

      When you fake the markings, all you do is waste both her time, and your time… that’s it. You just prevented her from cutting you off early on. But she’s still gonna cut you off if you don’t actually have the goods and are just acting.

    7. To illustrate a different way… It doesn’t have to be about status. Let’s say you act as if though you get laid a ton.

      A girl who’s horny and wants to get laid is going to get curious about that. If you’re convincing in the act. But she’s just going to get curious (or more likely to), she’s not more likely to fuck you. Make sense?

      This is proven by the fact that nobody has ever demonstrated to improve their % of lays using that crap… they always talk about the increase in other positives (i.e. false positives).

    8. That was a very good answer thank you.

      So something like “dont let girls take advantage of you” is something you would do but that wouldnt add to your attractiviness? For example: girls often have beta orbiters that do things for them. If you refuse to become one is she going to think ” wow this guy has balls” or ” what a rude loser, fuck him” ?

    9. @Lucas:
      It’s merely a matter of self-respect. Your mind is too much revolving around “getting laid”.

    10. To add to Alek’s point:

      It takes at least as much time to become a good faker, as it does to actually create the circumstances that effectively give you status. In other words, you might as well start working on your Looks, Money and Status instead of Mystery-Method-Style try to fake having things you don’t have/ you aren’t.

      That being said, if you get to have status after say 5 years of work, nobody will flip a switch and you’ll “act alpha” all of a sudden. Bill Gates has money and status (bad looks though) but still acts dorky. I couldn’t take him serious in a bar. Like, he couldn’t trash me, because he’s a fucking weirdo.
      So, certain RSD concepts like “the one who reacts less in a conversation is more alpha” do have validity, but they’re the (necessary) little icing on the cake. Get the cake baked first.

    11. So something like “dont let girls take advantage of you” is something you would do but that wouldnt add to your attractiviness?

      This is where the differentiation between attraction and interest comes on 🙂 One of the main sources of faulty reasoning and conclusions in PUA arose from the fact that they conflate interest and attraction into one thing. In other words, they see every form of interest as a sign of attraction. But interest is not attraction… They’re related phenomena, but not the same.

      To speak to your specific example… If you don’t take crap from girls… her interest is likely to rise, not her attraction.

      What does this mean?

      Since not-taking shit from girls and being picky is a sign that you have higher-than-average value as a man… it’s likely to pique her interest in whether you are a potential mate.

      That’s all it does… piques interest. If its a behaviour you learned to display conciously in order to pique interest from chicks (and thinking it’s causing attraction), all you did was waste both her time and your time.

    12. As the saying goes most convincing lie is a half-truth.
      In its most simple form some of PUA stuff is actually true. For example man has to show direct interest first without anxiety which requires some inner game and freedom from outcome (TM).
      But that is about it. PUAs then pile up bunch of made-up stuff on simple truths in order to sell their material. Whats worse they tell you are better off practicing their nonsense than actually working on your money, looks and status.

    13. Whats worse they tell you are better off practicing their nonsense than actually working on your money, looks and status.

      That’s the worst part. I feel like these assholes robbed me of my youth. It’s why I hate them (and other lie-peddlers so much).

      I shudder to think where I would be today if I spent my teens and early twenties working on LMS instead of that game crap. I only got it in my late twenties and went-on an LMS-raising crusade then…

      I achieved a solid amount, can’t complain… but I just can’t imagine how much more I’d have achieved had I started a decade earlier, instead of wasting a decade on the game bullshit (i.e. behaviour-based crap).

    14. As neutral pointed out, it actually takes AT least as much time to become a good faker (or develop the behaviour of a succesfull person without being one) as it takes to ACTUALLY become one.

      In my case getting the real thing was way faster…. waaaaaaay waaay faster. In other words to develop 10% of the behaviours of a guy who’s a 7 in status… it took me like 10 years. Actually getting to a 7 in status took me like 5 years, and a lot of the behaviours flowed from it naturally. Not all though…

      My behaviour isn’t as “alpha” or let’s say “indicative” of being a 7 in status as someone who’s been a 7 longer… but that’s another thing… it doesn’t matter.

      Just like faking the behaviour of a 7 means nothing when she finds out you’re actually a 4… The same is true in reverse… Chicks initially dismiss me as a 5 because I act like a 5… but once they find out i’m actually a 7 (my real actual status/accomplishments, they act accordingly anyway).

      So what matters is your actual level in the end, because the chick always finds out, and acts according to your real actual level anyway.

    15. Everything is a random process including mens’ attractiveness towards girls and all of pickup in general. All you can do are things that makes you attractive to the vast majority of girl and then you can ask as many girls as possible in the probability that some will stick. It’s a numbers game. All this alpha and beta is nonsense. It doesn’t exist. Alpha and beta theory is like fundamental and technical analysis in the stock market. Both don’t work consistently over time. Trying to see patterns of behavior where none exist in a random process is a fools errand.

    16. Question For Alek:

      What’s your opinion on getting in-person coaching via a Dale Carnegie training courses and the like? (I know there are books/DVD’s,but obviously none of that is ever going to be as good as getting an actual qualified teacher with you to address your specific problems and circumstances)

      I don’t just mean in terms of learning transferable skills for pickup(though I’d be interested to hear about that as well),but for helping you to become more successful in life in general. Being Charismatic helps obviously.

      Input from others is welcome as well.

    17. @maou, I had some real life stuff to handle, so I didn’t finish my train of though… what I was going to say next is relevant to your questions, i’ll continue it now…

    18. (Continued 1)

      Now, when I say wasted a decade of my life due to these dumbassess selling a lie… I don’t mean PUAs. I mean all of fucking society (everyone that sells the lie that attraction is about behaviour). I was never a PUA even at my dumbest, youngest naive self. In fact we made fun of PUAs.

      What people might not realize is that PUAs were always a joke, even in their heyday. The “seduction community” was always a wider community for “men’s improvement with the goal of increased success with women”.

      It preceded PUAs, and even when they were at their peak, they were never more than 30%. The other part of the community was guys who had a more rounded approach.

      The idea was that you would improve yourself (your behaviours) to become more attractive to women. Focusing on things like supposedly developing charisma, conversational skills, influence and leadership abilities etc…

      But that is also a scam. The whole notion of becoming attractive through modifying behaviour is a scam…. (at least in terms of bang for your buck).

    19. (Continue 2a)

      And this is where all of this ties into that other discussion about the difference between the pills.

      – The mainstream is this huge set of lies about gender dynamics and the true nature of women

      RedPill comes in, and exposes some of these lies… it talks about hypergamy, the fact that the same girl who pretends to be a prude with you will bang a chad in 3 minutes in the club bathroom (most girls would). Talks about provider vs chad.

      The redpill community calls the chads “alphas”… And this is where the problem with the redpill community. It’s almost like the perfect “controlled opposition” to the mainstream… because it makes you feel like you’re in the know and you’ve escaped “the matrix” of the mainstream…

      But it just tricks you to stay in the mainstream matrix… because the BIGGEST secret about women isn’t the provider/alpha/hypergamy thing… THE BIGGEST lie that society sells to men is that women care about your personality and behaviour.

    20. (Continue 2b)

      You approach a chick, she rejects you:

      PUA: You must have said the wrong thing, made the wrong move
      Feminist: You must have said the wrong thing, made the wrong move
      Mainstream: You must have said the wrong thing, made the wrong move

      You have a low success rate

      PUA: You need to change your thinking, women can “tell” you have bad thoughs, and it’s coming across in your energy, work on your inner game

      Feminist: You need to change your thinking, women can “tell” you have misogynistic though, and it’s coming across in your energy, work on understanding women/feminism better

      Mainstream: You need to change your thinking, women can “tell” you have bad thoughs, and it’s coming across in your energy, work on your demeanor and how you come across, read some self-help books

    21. Alek
      Your analysis is excellent.

      “This is proven by the fact that nobody has ever demonstrated to improve their % of lays using that crap… they always talk about the increase in other positives (i.e. false positives).”

      I have to chip in here my 2 cents.
      I think “PUA” does work as a sort of “training wheels” to get reasonably good but looking shy guys out there and start getting them laid more. Unfortunately it blew up to such a ridiculous extent that it muddied with absolute garbage by an army of charlatans. But going back to the early stuff is useful as a short term “hack” imo.
      The PUA bible The Game is actually still a pretty useful guide imo in that it lays out a sequence of steps 1) basics 2)The looks Makeover 2) approaching 3) strategies to manage common situations in a pickup at bars and clubs etc. The details of routines etc is outdated now but regardless substitute with your own doesn’t matter.

      The most useful thing about the book above others is that it’s told in a *sequential story format* which is easier to remember and encode than a book like MG . (Sorry Aaron but the brain is a story processor not a logic processor). MG may be too much of a jump for guys new to trying pickup. That kind of escalation is tough to get down without a base level of confidence and experience.

      Within a short time say 6months a guy should be removing the “training wheels “ and boiling it down himself to minimal game and a more simplified direct approach naturally, short-cutting the steps as he sees what really works.
      Until eventually he streamlines his pickups to 30 minutes, 20 minutes ,10 minutes etc and moves on (maybe) to stuff like sex in stalls , alleyways, day game pulls, maybe threesomes etc. not a given every guy can hit that “level “ tho of course and definitely not with quality chicks , there is limits to reality. Depends what he is happy with.

      That’s my take on it. I managed to ramp up my lay count significantly that way but it took much longer as I got stuck in rabbit hole of studying all the new PUA bullshit that flooded the market at the time . Thankfully a lot of that was debunked in Sleazys book.

      Gaining Status or Money can take time and doesn’t really teach a guy how to approach .
      There are still hacks to get it faster tho admittedly.

      Apols for the necro but just felt I had to chip in as a guy who went through the mill myself for years also.

  2. What further literature regarding the topics #love, #life, #relationships can you recommend? I’ve read your books, I’ve read “The rationale male” by Rollo Tomassi, I’ve also read “No more Mr. Nice Guy” by Robert A. Glover. Right now I am trying to read “Models” by Mark Mansion, although I find it rather bloated…

    1. @Sleazy

      Something on intergender dynamics and the social and psychological underpinnings of intergender relations.

      Whatever you can recommend 😉
      It is difficult to see through the vast amount of books regarding that subject…

    2. You could try “Book of Pook”. It’s weirdly written but you get used to it. It discusses self-improvement and gender relations. If you don’t want to read all of it, at least read “15 lessons “… The epub version is located here:

      Another book is “Gendernomics” which provides an economic analogy to inter-sexual relations/dynamics:

  3. I have a suggestion for aaron:

    Why dont you make a top 10/20/whatever , or the must read posts list?

    I think this could be very useful for newcomers

    1. Such a top X list would depend a lot on the reader. However, I intend to put up an index sometime this year, which should make navigating the blog a lot easier.

    2. You could also navigate the forum. Theres not as much activity as there used to be, but there are years of posts there for you to read. The search function works pretty well too. Almost all of the most common questions and topics you might come up with have been addressed there.

  4. AI seems to be making its way in HR field. Amazon created an automated system for candidate recruitment based on CV text mining. Note that recruitment is a phase in which most promising candidates are picked from a wide candidate pool and invited for interviews and more thorough testing.

    The AI system had to be ditched because it had strong preference for men:

    1. Yeah, they are blaming it on “faulty input data”…. because the algorythms looked at past CVs and most were male, the AI supposedly skewed male. I wonder if thats true or if they are making up excuses because male applicants actually had superior cvs?

      IIRC in 2017 the australian civil service tried gender blind hiring and it turned out men had better qualifications than women, so of course they had to ditch the gender blindness.

  5. Hey everyone, I would greatly appreciate some advice on what I could possibly improve on regarding getting women from night clubs.

    Positive aspects about myself:
    -Weightlifting for over two years, many people have complimented me on my physique
    -Decent facial aesthetics with strong jawline, beard growth
    -Good sense of fashion
    -Good social skills

    Potential negatives:
    -Height at 5’9, I am taller than most girls in the club but many guys are 6’2+
    -Not overly extroverted

    I have been following the advice from Minimal Game and Club Game. As I enjoy indie rock and drum and bass, I have started going to these types of clubs and bars. I am incredibly selective with the girls I approach and only go for the ones who look like they are receptive. Many of these girls are glad to speak to me regarding incredibly basic shit and don’t freak out when I touch them. However, whenever I suggest something such as leaving the dancefloor to go to a quieter area of the bar, they always refuse.

    While I don’t want to get too analytical, I am curious as to whether I’m “doing anything wrong”.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. I’m commenting as a guy who never got past that sticking point… I was never motivated enough to… because I reached a satisfying level of success through social-circle/status…

      The sticking point you’re describing is something that happens when it’s a mix of 2 things:

      1) She’s not interested enough
      2) The invite is too blunt

      Like, there is a way of saying let’s go somewhere more private that’s almost like saying “want some fuk”, and chicks go noooooo on autopilot, even if they’re interested. I’m saying this as a guy who never got past this sticking point… so i might be completely wrong.

    2. All your problems probably can be solved by casting a wider net. That is, until you learn to spot available girls for real. Then you can be selective.

      Test the waters more. (Club Game) My suggestion is that you become even more direct in your statements and weed out uninterested girls sooner. But your milage will vary.

    3. Thanks for your comments guys.

      Don: Is it possible for most (90%+) girls in the club to be uninterested? In my country, I rarely see makeouts and pulls occurring, especially between strangers. Most guys (admittedly they’re dressed like dog shit) don’t get any approach invitations from girls, who seem like they would rather be taking photos to put on Instagram.

      It would also be amazing if Aaron could give his two cents on this. As far as I’m aware, Club Game was released in 2014. Is it reasonable for me to assume that while this strategy is still useful, its effectiveness has decreased because of social media? How should I adapt?

      Just trying to get some realistic expectations here (Not PUA garbage of “I pull models every time I go out”).


    4. I don’t know anything about your country. So, my comment is even more valid. Cast a wider net and you’ll know for yourself whether 90%+ girls are uninterested or interested. If it’s like any other country, 90%+ girls are horny in a club. But your milage may vary.

  6. I have a problem. I am interested in how you guys manage it. I am a Face and Pussy man. While girls faces don’t pose a problem their pussies typically smell. How do you manage this problem?

    1. I get what you mean… but for me it’s a 2 second though. If the pussy is nice, I focus on it, like wow that’s nice. If it isn’t, I just find my focus shifts on what is nice… like the perfectly flat and lickable belly or whatnot.

      I hope you didn’t jinx me and now I start focusing on the pussy too, lol. Coz I’m guessing that’s what it is. It’s just that you have a negative focus. Like “Don’t think of a pink elephant”.

    2. If her pussy stink, send her to the bathroom bro.
      Is it so difficult?

      (And if she doesn’t want to, either accept it or throw her out. There’s prostitutes for near perfect sex)

    3. If her pussy stink, send her to the bathroom bro.

      I have done that but that always makes the girl uncomfortable.

    4. Lol. No. That fishy smell is usually caused by an infection called bacterial vaginosis, which is commonly caused by having multiple sex partners. If you get this smell yourself you should get it treated.

    1. Honestly, I don’t want Aaron to make a mistake and write a book on online dating. Online dating is still plagued by the same problems as before. Even the best computerized dating system, Tinder, doesn’t have too many hot girls that are easily approachable. Guys are barking up the wrong tree when they date online.

    2. There is a good chance I will revisit the draft of my online dating book later this year. Lucas makes a very good point, namely that it can be a very time-efficient way of meeting women. I will discuss what I consider a very good and practical strategy in that book.

    3. I recall him saying working on a draft about this argument. Anyway, online dating in my opinion is tougher than club game but it could be convenient because of its 0 marginal cost ( if you value your time 0)

  7. Aaron I am a very good looking guy but at times when I go to cold approach either in the streets or clubs I don’t get eye contact from women or at least from women that I am interested in.I am therefore forced to cold approach which I know you are not fan of it.
    What should I tell to my friends that maybe are not that good looking as me who probably have it harder with IOI’s ?

    What is the solution for this?

    1. We’ve discussed this before a lot. Try googling warm approaches in reference to this blog. You should find previous discussions.

      Short story: It’s not about waiting for eye-contact.

    2. Can’t seem to find anything …Besides eye contact what else can a woman do to show you interest?

    3. I suggest you find out which club the footballers (or any other womanizer type) go to party and watch girls give them their pussy on a silver platter. That way you’ll understand what warm approaches look like.

    4. It’s a sight to behold. WAGS picking up for footballers. It’ll change who you are.

    5. Don, that would be more of a hot approach lol. Not very useful to ssvN if he’s not a footballer.

    6. Don those are status warm approaches I talk manly for street cold approaches when you are not a celebrity…

      I am a good looking dude I’ve been approached a few times at clubs but I prefer street cold approaches cause I can have a proper conversation ,my problem is though that at times and days I am forcing eye contact but I barely get one and I am forced to cold approach and run numbers game…

    7. So do a warm approach 🙂

      I just did a google search, and it found those previous discussions. You didn’t even try did you?

    8. Here you go, but please next time don’t lie that you searched and found nothing:

      To get you started:

      Then read through entire comments section in both that piece, and the following one:

      And no, I won’t pick out the exact things that apply to you. Read through the comments/pieces if you want a freebie. If you want to be spoon-fed, book a paid consultation with Aaron, that’s why they’re there for.

    9. I posted links to the posts. But the blog put the comment in moderation coz it has links.

    10. Basically, for anyone looking for answers. Everything has already been answered either:

      – In one of Aaron’s Books (100% of the fundamental stuff, and most* specifics)

      – In one of the many blog posts over the years

      – And then further, if people couldn’t get the specifics, or needed a clarification, it exists in one of the comments on those posts. So everything that you might need clarified, has been clarified in either a blog post or the comments section.

      So if you have the time, you can do the studying. Read the books, and study the archives. Don’t expect a very specific answer like “your exact scenario and specific is covered on page xyz, and there’s an additional example in this comment on that blog post”.

      If you want something very laser-targeted and personalized, that’s why Aaron has paid consultation sessions.

      *-Obviously Aaron can’t cover every possible permutation and include every possible clarification for every possible missunderstanding. In that case the book would be like 3890 pages or so. But again, everything has been clarified within the blog archives somewhere… FOR FREE. And if you want to save time, there’s always paid consultations.

  8. I remember you using the rationale of “club whores would’ve slept with someone else anyway” to justify your sexcapades. Your logic is along the lines of “the world is fucked anyway, why bother,” but I don’t think that’s a good way to operate in the world. If the world is fucked, should it not be all of our jobs to ameliorate any problems that we may confront? If you see trash on your way to work, would you not pick it up? Or would you throw more trash on top? In this case, the trash is equivalent to the club whores.

    I understand that fixing club whores is too large a problem to assign to any one man, but then would you go and make the problem worse just for your own sensual pleasure?

    Just trying to make an ethical argument and see rebuttals.

    1. How would you go about controlling female hypergamy and the promiscuity of some women? In terms of literal street trash, we should be able to automate garbage removal soon enough.

    2. Btw I remember discussing the possible inventions of super realistic sex dolls and artificial wombs before, and those two things right there would have a drastic effect on male/female relations. As far as women returning to traditional roles en mass, that’s not very likely except under extreme conditions, like a financial meltdown or global disaster/war or something.

      Are you suggesting that men collectively band together to shame women into submission? I’m just asking. Who has got time for all that anyway when you’re just trying to tap a lot of ass while getting your schooling out of the way?

      If all else fails, “enjoy the decline.” We have mostly inherited this world and I don’t feel personally obligated to rectify the mistakes of many.

    3. I’m only pointing out something that I do not agree with. I have no easy solutions. In the end, everyone will have to suffer in a post-decline world. It would be better if we aimed at fixing problems rather than engaging in schadenfreude.

      I don’t think sex dolls will be good for mankind. Chances are any drastic changes to billions of years of genetic programming will result in consequences of unfathomable magnitude.

    4. At the risk of sounding too sci-fi, I believe that genetic engineering is a natural progression for a sentient species. Though I would argue that the majority of human beings are barely conscious.

  9. Does anyone have suggestions on how to overcome low testosterone levels?

    I already do fitness, i am not fat, dont have much stress but the test i have done says i have 303 ng/dl, i know optimal level should be near 1000.
    The only thing i thought is to have a vitamins,zinc,omega3 suplement

    Testosterone boosters are i think just a way to have you pay more for vitamins and minerals.

    1. Increase status, that should do it.

      That’s one of the pathways through which you get hornier when you get more access to pussy. Your testosterone goes up.

      Basically any way that makes you more attractive to chicks will get you to get more attention from chicks, which will in turn raise your testosterone.

      But why would you want to raise it though?

    2. There can be many issues. Do you get enough sleep? How is your nutrition? Have you spoken to a doctor?

    3. Thats what i was saying, i want to take some integration because i think my diet is lacking in something.

      I seen that a supplement of B complex + zinc + magnesium + D3 is going to help.
      I even seen that there are some afrodisiac herbs that are supposed to increase your horniness and give you harder erections: maca, ginsko biloba and horny goat weed.

      Have anyone tried something similar?

    4. From what I gather “Horny Goat Weed” is supposed to be a scam. I looked into Maca briefly and found peer-reviewed studies that purported that it increases libido. I tried it myself but I am unconvinced.

    5. I spoken to a doctor, he says i am fine with my T level, but as i said i seen online that optimal level should be near 1000, otherwise you have problems with erections, morning wood… which is something i have atm

      I think the nutrition may be the issue, i started taking something called “mind care balance” which is a very complete integrator, now i was looking for something that would make me more horny so i was looking in those herbs

    6. I even seen the boron as a valid supplement for T levels,

      but at this point i feel like i am stacking up all this integrators and for sure wont take 5-7 pills each day so i may have to decide whats worth trying

    7. Read into sleep apnea. Despite improving my diet with each year, my testo fell from 1000 to about 160. I have already booked a meeting to evaluate my sleep

    8. Wow 160 is a crazy low number. Btw i already know sleep apnea isnt my problem, mine is prpbably in my diet which i am now using supplements to solve

  10. Hello again guys, status report on my club ventures:

    I don’t know if it’s the venue or just my country’s customs but I’m under the impression that most girls who go clubbing go with their boyfriends or a huge mixed group.

    Whenever I try to even talk to them, I end up getting a boyfriend objection, or getting interrupted by someone else from the group. Furthermore, I haven’t seen any girls give any guys any indication they wish to be approached – they seem to be content with playing with their phones. There really doesn’t seem to be any sexual tension as in the clubs that Aaron described in Club Game with makeouts and stuff.

    Has anyone made it past my stage of frustration? If so, I would love to hear your experiences.

    1. Aaron did point out he went to specific kinds of clubs. There a difference in the type of people who go out to which kinds of clubs and why.

    2. Hey Alek,

      On hindsight, I did seem to go to a rather mainstream place last night. It was nerve-racking even trying to talk to a girl there in that venue with her boyfriend (and 10 orbiters ?) acting overly defensive. Is this why Aaron recommended more niche venues over places blasting top 40s stuff?

      Also to double check – even if I’m good looking it won’t necessarily mean girls will give me overt signals right?

    3. That’s the one generalization you can make. Mainstream clubs are the least likely to get laid in – whatever the country.

    4. Do you never see groups of girls? Big mixed groups and boyfriend/girlfriend pairings are more common in mainstream venues. One of my favorite clubs back in the day, Berghain in Berlin, for instance, had a strict policy to not let big groups in at all. I have even seen groups of (good-looking) girls get turned away at the door.

      If you never see any make outs happening, then it’s likely just not the right venue for pulling chicks. In some places, people really only want to listen to a band and socialize with their wider social circle. When I was partying in those niche clubs in London, I’ve always seen plenty of girls making out and leaving with guys, so I thought, “Why not me?” and got going. On the other hand, had I never seen that happen, I may not even have explored club game as a viable option.

    5. Hey Aaron, thanks for replying!

      Pulling seems to be more of an exception than the rule here, despite the fact that this is a city with more than 1 million people and considered one of the most promiscuous in the world.

      Admittedly the more niche places I have visited have smaller groups of people and a more welcoming atmosphere. However, I still rarely see makeouts and pulls between strangers – maybe it’s because no guys approach here? What are some signs of a club between good for pulling?

      I’ll experiment more this week.

    6. Forgot to mention, I noticed you referred to Berghain as one of your favourite clubs.

      The venues I go to don’t need to be as crazy as Berghain for me to pull right? I believe the only clubs in my city that are as open as Berghain are LGBT bars and hip-hop clubs with some of the most ratchet girls you will ever see.

    7. May it be that nowdays girls need less and less more to be looking for guys tohit on them because of social media, tinder etc… ?

      In that case going to a club may be just an occasion to have fun with their social circle

  11. TylerDyrden of RSD is promoting feminist stuff again, but this time it’s gotten to a really absurd level:

    He’s teaching the most extreme version about “verbal consent at every each step”… yeah that’s the shit where you’re supposedly supposed to verbally reaffirm every single action during sex.

    Ok, so you liked it when I was licking your tits, do you consent to me now sucking your tits? (verbal yes).

    1. I remember that julien had some beef with femnist movements because of his bootcamps.
      I think that he even got banned from some countries.

      They probably thought that is much more profitable these days a femnist approach

    2. I briefly looked at it. He essentially tells guys that they cannot ever have sex with a girl. What’s up with that guy’s style? He dresses like a fucking loser.

    3. It’s basically his schtick. He specializes in telling guys you can be a complete loser in every which way, because nothing matters except your game (behaviour).

  12. I wanted to ask to aaron or to someone with some experience a question:

    how sufficient need to be for you an indicator of interest from a woman for you to approximate that much probably she finds you attractive?

    Please provide example of the minimum indicator a girl needs to give you before you take any kind of action

    1. If in doubt, approach anyway. You will quickly notice if the is interested, and if this is difficult now, it will become easier with experience. Heck, you don’t even have to say anything in some cases. Just walk up to them and watch their body language change, positively or negatively, as they notice you. This is obvious even in everyday interactions and can lead to bizarre misinterpretations, i.e. women believing you are hitting on them and thus acting flirty when you are not interested at all.

    1. Lol that doesn’t necessarily mean it doesn’t work. You can look more or less attractive in different photos. Numerous pictures of myself vary by just one point. I have run quite some pictures through it of celebrities and acquaintances of varying attractiveness, and it roughly reflects the human perception of those people’s attractiveness.

      It does seem very sensitive to color (black and white pics rated lower) and prominence of certain facial features (cheekbones, lips, eyes) though, at the expense of others aspects, such as symmetry.

    2. this thing rated me between 6 and 9
      on various pic i got four ratings on four pics
      mean 7.5 so i am 7.5?

    3. That is probably not true especially since, I got 10 and 3 in my two pictures. You can always, go home, go hide and go fuck yourself. Lol.

  13. Hey @aaronsleazy and everyone else… are refugees in your respective countries somehow burning down the homes they are given by your respective virtue-signalling governments? In Eastern Canada, in the last two days, two families (mom, dad and at least six children) were in house fires. The first familiy, all the kids died (cue violin strings…and a $1M gofundme campaign…see this link: )

    Any reason why these fires happen? Are they building bombs and it goes off? Or are the homes just not good enough for these poor refugees?

    1. It’s a strategy. They burn the place, hoping to get an upgrade. What also happens is that they don’t know about fire risks and accidentally burn down an apartment building. There was a case like that in London a couple years ago, Grenfell Tower. What had happened was that one of the residents in this compound, which was largely occupied by immigrants, apparently used a fridge that was no longer safe. It caught fire, which quickly spread. The outcome was the same. The residents got put up in better housing.

      It is of course politically incorrect to question the published narrative. What I know from my time in Berlin, though, is that some immigrants don’t really believe in keeping, for instance, staircases and shared hallways free of their stuff. Instead, they claim it. Should a fire in such a building break out, it could easily spread because of that.

  14. I am a 17 year old guy who lives with his parents. My girlfriend wanted to marry so I dumped her recently. I feel like I should be wild before committing to a chick. I am not religious either so, I am completely okay doing that. How would you guys go out and fuck girls if you were 17 again?

    BTW, I can approach girls easily. They say I am hot. But my problem is one of logistics. Any help is much appreciated.

    Thanks Aaron. I like your blog although I think you should stay off the anti-SJW bandwagon a bit more since SJWs are a fringe phenomena outside of college campuses.

    1. Go to a hotel and if that seems odd to you, travel to another city or country under the guise of going there as a tourist. Do it by yourself or get a male friend(s) to go with you if you are too young to go (accordingly to your parents) or if you are scared to go to another country alone. It will be a great bonding experience with your friend(s). Thailand comes to mind. If that is too far away, try somewhere closer. Just don’t be dumb when you are abroad and practice safe traveling practices.

      If you don’t have the money to do so, try going to her place which may or may not work. I personally don’t recommend having sex in public places although many may recommend that option to you.

      Good luck.

  15. Hey everyone,

    I just came back from another venture to the clubs and followed the advice from Aaron and Don from their earlier posts.

    This particular club was a rather niche underground club which specialised in drum and bass. I felt more comfortable this club due to the omnipresent loud music and somewhat dark atmosphere (similar to clubs mentioned in Club Game I assume?). It also seemed like some girls came in a single sex group.

    I “tested the waters” quite extensively by touching and making observations to girls who were bopping their heads (what song is this, enjoying yourself etc). Every time I tried this, I got a short answer then they turned away. I also believe that 99% of the girls making out and leaving with guys were from the same social circle. It was honestly a bit disheartening seeing guys who were tall but dressed like homeless people leaving with attractive women.

    At this point negative thoughts have started to creep into my head, such as insecurities regarding my looks, height, and social standing. Surely I’m not doing anything wrong approach wise as girls are ultimately the selectors? Where do I go from here?

    Sorry about the ranty nature of this post, I’m just slightly overwhelmed by all the uncertainty I’m facing.

    1. I am going to type this in several parts since I couldn’t get it to go through otherwise.

    2. Con -just wondering, did you manage to get any better results in the bars and clubs since? Did you manage to determine what the issues were ?

  16. Game is really a numbers game. The more you approach the better you get. Further, the more you approach the more closer you are to getting a sense of things. Things like which girl(s) likes you. But that comes with experience (a.k.a. numbers) with anything.

    If you don’t really get overt eye contact from girls you may want to test the waters this way instead. This way is when you keep your ego unblemished since you could approach a lot more girls with only a slight chance of rejection.

    Like you said above, you asked girls in the club you were in at the time the following. “What is that song?” & “Enjoying yourself?”. I would prefer to have asked them the same thing yet in a different way like this. Notice the question mark at the end of the examples you gave which I added for completion? That is what you have to eradicate to not put your heart and soul on the line for rejection when testing the waters.

    1. Don this is very interesting. Can you elaborate more about the issue with the question marks? I mean, shouldnt the girl be interested in you based on your looks regardless what you say as ice breaker?

    2. Yes Lucas. But that is just a way to properly test the waters. Testing the waters as you know is how you figure out if she’s into you or not.

    3. The problem with questions is that it lets the woman chose to reject you or not. But a statement lets the women the chance to engage you further or not. But not the chance to reject you. Thus you can approach hundreds of girls this way and not really be rejected.

    4. “The problem with questions is that it lets the woman chose to reject you or not. But a statement lets the women the chance to engage you further or not. But not the chance to reject you. Thus you can approach hundreds of girls this way and not really be rejected.”

      Honestly i dont think that this is true. The girl deep down knows that when you approach her with a statement, you are trying to hit on her. So if she doesnt like you she will rejects you anyway.
      As aaron said, this happen too when you approach a girl with no sexual intentions, she may still think you are hitting on her and reject you

  17. So, instead of saying “What is that song?”, say “I love that song”. Instead of “Enjoying yourself?”, say something like “I feeling like dancing now”. If she finds you attractive enough or at least she is somewhat talkative and not shy, she’ll say “I love it too” or better yet, she’ll ask you a question back. As the ice is now broken with your new STATEMENT vs a question as you did previously.

    This way, you are not asking them to do anything like answer your question and as such they have less power over you. Further, you have left the asking them question part to the girl who if she finds you attractive and is not very shy may initiate you with a question of her own now. Thus you have the power. I say make two or three or four statements max and if she’s not seemingly receptive, move on. The number of statements are irrelevant but calibrate to her response. That is important.

    If she complies, continue to test the waters. Continue to test the waters until your cock is inside her. And, that is when the fun begins. Because at some point, you both come to an understanding enough to tell them what you want directly. Till that point, test the waters.

  18. A good caveat to the above is that you have to calibrate the testing of water to the situation. There is no way around it. For instance, If she touches your cock and asks you how big it is, don’t say “What is that song?” or “I love that song”. You hopefully get the drift. If you don’t its your problem and not mine. I am not responsible for anything that happens to you that what ever that you do. (Disclaimer)

  19. As for which clubs to go to, it doesn’t really matter too much. Although it does matter. In every club almost every night, there are horny girls. Try to identify them and ask them.

    Further note on testing the waters. There are guys like myself, Aaron and others, who don’t have to test the waters especially in clubs since, at least some of the time, it is obvious which girl is horny or your get eye contact. But don’t think that we don’t test the waters at all. It’s just that we test the waters with a girl we know is horny by testing the waters if she wants to fuck. Like wise, we start from a higher level that just breaking the ice but it is testing the waters nevertheless. You have to do this until you can communicate directly with her with out any ice to break anymore.

    If you don’t get any indication to continue from girls after asking hundreds, you may have a looks issue.

    1. Wow alex what a pearl of informations, just what i needed thank you very much.

      Also at this point of don said earlier make much more sense to me now

    2. About the look, when you receive it, how many levels you can expect to skip in average? (even if you still havent approached the girl)

    3. About the look, when you receive it, how many levels you can expect to skip in average? (even if you still havent approached the girl)

      Considering the fact that we make up the levels for the sake of illustration and they are arbitrary, there’s no such answer. Like how many levels are there between asexual interactions and having sex? 10, 50, 257?

      The levels are just for illustrative purposes… you can subsplit the degree of sexuality in an interaction to as many levels as you want… You can subsplit it in 200 levels if you wanted to. Or you can say there’s like 15 levels between completely asexual and fingering her.

      Point is, you’ll learn with experience, and you’ll know how much you can skip with which kinds of signals.

    4. When you’re starting out learning this stuff:

      — start interactions at zero sexuality
      — increase sexuality in the smallest increments* you can define
      — keep doing that until you either have sex, or girl says “wow i’m flattered you tried to increase the level, but no thanks”

      After a hundred of these interactions you’ll develop a sense for how much you can skip/when. You’ll be able to tell when you can approach a girl at a higher level (don’t have to start asexual), etc etc…

      *-(I’m assuming basic sense in the reader here, I’m assuming he doesn’t think that the next smallest increment after an asexual hello is shoving his tongue down her throat lol)

    5. Another issue I have is the fear of getting into a fight. My country has quite a bit of macho behaviour and mate guarding, meaning that guys will quickly confront you.

      As mentioned before, many girls go clubbing with mixed groups. These girls hug and touch guys in their social circle on the shoulder but they don’t seem to go beyond that, the guys also try to display “cool behaviour” in order to impress them which at most gets a laugh (mostly guys with shit looks).

      Should I just proceed as normal in these situations by making innocent comments to determine her interest then gradually escalating, or should I just not bother?

    6. You might have to approach girls who look more approachable in the beginning. Lone wolfs (girls who are alone), and a set of two girls may be a good start. After that, you’ll hopefully get a hang of it all. Don’t press yourself to approach any particular girl. It’s all a numbers game. Try focusing on approaching more girls instead. If you think a guy may pick a fight then don’t do it. Also, take up some Martial Arts. You seem like a scary cat.

      Don’t worry, my biggest fear was getting into fights as well. You get over it over time. What I did was to take baby steps.

    7. What Alek said about skipping levels is spot on BTW. I wish I could be that much elaborative when I write. But it is what it is.

    8. @Pickernanny: Yes, but not in a spam approach format where I burn out entire clubs in 1 hour.

      @Don: Grappling is only effective in one-on-one fights although I do understand what you mean. Maybe I just need to man up a bit more.

      Final question for the time being. How do I not get discouraged at the high failure rate? I’ve followed some other advice about getting my life together and so far I’m doing alright regarding grades, social skills, career, hobbies etc. I just take it really personally when a girl who I’ve never talked to before rejects me.

    9. @Con; It’s her CHOICE too. You have to UNDERSTAND that a lot of girls are not even available let alone interested. Respect her choice. It’s not just a rejection if she’s not into you. Don’t get offended by rejection. Instead focus on the girls that are interested.

    10. The key to rejection is that it is not rude. The girl has a life too. A life with choices, needs and etc. It’s only stupid guys that get triggered by rejection and offended if not triggered. She has to have a choice. Especially if she was polite in rejecting you or even just didn’t comment at all in rejecting you. I too will get offended if she throws a drink at me but, that too, I’ll laugh it off for the most part.

    11. BTW, most girls are not going to fuck you at any given moment. That’s just how it is. Play the numbers game and focus on the ones that actually wants to have sex with you. Don’t fret or spend a single second thinking and getting triggered by girls and rejections by girls who don’t want to fuck you.

    12. Con, at this point, I personally don’t escalate at all unless I’m given a decent signal. That’s just me.

  20. Often here we discuss how being tall is important and ways to improve, i was wandering if the bone structure matters too. I am referring to being ectomoprhic, endomoprhic, mesomorphic. There is a fenotype that is prefered among the others? Often in incel communities they feel that an ectomoprhic fenotype is a flaw, they even call them “wristcel” (LOL).

    What do you think guys, there is one that is better than the others or is just a matter of preference?

    1. I don’t think there are studies on that… but there are studies on muscle/fat levels and how attracted women are to each.

      – Obviously the most attractive are the buff dudes (low bodyfat, high muscle).

      – Second in line are actually the skinny dudes with no muscle (low bodyfat, low muscle).

      – Third in line are the high muscle, moderate fat guys (this is where you are fat, but it’s still apparent it’s a mixture of fat and muscle)

      – Obviously last are the high fat guys (above a certain level, it doesn’t matter if there’s muscle beneath the fat).

    2. I think I remember reading a study that claimed that women ideally search for a guy who is about 1 point on the BMI scale higher than them. Obviously the guy will usually be taller so his weight will be quite a bit more than hers to obtain that value.

    3. Interesting, and what about:

      Buffed ectomorphic vs buffed endomorphic vs buffed mesomorphic ?

    4. @Lucas… I’m sorry to have to be so blunt, but I can’t be arsed to elaborate. That’s just dumb.

  21. Alexnovy, i was skimming trough aarons posts and you seem to often give very valuable informations. I was thinking, why dont you write down the links to your best contents of all time?

    1. It is one of about 789 tasks on my “things to do in my life at some point when I get around to them” list.

      And no i’m not sarcastic. It is actually written down… i just don’t know if I’ll ever come around to it.

  22. I would like to go to bars and clubs ALONE because I don’t want to be humiliated by a girl I approach in front of my friends. I am scared to approach girls using what Stelar said because I fear been beaten by cock blocks. What could be some remedy for my unique problem?

  23. In your guys’ opinions, is it worth it to get a blue collar job to toughen yourself up?

    Being a nerd and accruing in-demand, white-collar skills is great and all, but I believe there’s something important to be gotten from being around tough people and growing thicker skin.

    1. Why find job for that? you can try your hand at hobbies like wrestling or other competitive combat type of hobbies. also go alone to Thailand.

    2. Surviving on your own in a foreign country will toughen you up as it builds resilience. Imagine starting from scratch. You’re not a tourist anymore, but instead you intend to live in that country. Now go find housing, find a job, make some friends, get laid. It will give you an entirely new outlook on life.

    3. I have not served in the military, but from what I hear and read, basic military training does exactly that: toughen you up. So, maybe look into that. If you are in the US, serving in the military also comes with great benefits, such as free training in in-demand skills.

      The problem with blue collar jobs is that they gradually wear you down. Sure, if you think that working as a carpenter or a mechanic for a few years will help you, go for it, but think of an exit strategy. Here in Europe, this is not such a big issue. I have met a few people who worked blue-collar jobs, then went to university, and then got an office job. Some employers may discriminate against such applicants, but there is plenty of work out there.

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