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127 thoughts on “Open Thread #60”
A female therapist treating my foot injury and shoulder injury mentioned to me that her and some friends were going on a make up course (for fun and leisure).
She jokingly said to me that I won’t be able to resist her after she has been on the course.
In the interests of discussing different signals so that we do’nt miss them – this is a come on, is it not?
It probably is. When in doubt l find it helpful to ask myself “would she be saying this to an ugly man?”
This is very likely a come-on. She’s flirting with you. Also, women don’t go on such a course “for fun”, but in order to learn about how to maximize their sexual market value.
Thought l’d share this rather amusing short film about a woman who purchases a robotic clone of herself to take care of her family while she attends to her own personal goals.
I remember years ago magazines and television media were perplexed at how women know instantaneously whether they want to have sex with a man or not. I was fascinated by what it was that these “complex, mysterious” creatures were “reading.” Is it a vibe? Are they reading the dudes personality?
Occam’s Razor: It’s looks. LMAO…..No different than oursevles. People overanalyze the hell out of women.
Dude, just no!! Women don’t care about looks (lol). Instead, they have such mystical powers that they can see right through your physical shell and read your soul like an open book — and if they like what they read, they will want to have sex with you.
Obviously, I’m kidding. It’s 100% looks. You can be the biggest asshole and they’ll tell you what a great personality you have. A few women I met I told I didn’t like their name and that I’ll call them by a different one. I just did this to see if I could get away with it. They even claimed they liked it. If they want to fuck you, they’ll like more or less everything you do.
Damn Aaron that was good. Both true and funny. I LOLed.
This reminds me of something I witnessed on Saturday night. I was standing in line to enter a bar, and an extremely tall, good looking fellow turns to me and asks me if I go there often. I thought he was making friendly conversation, so I told him I’d only been there a few times, but enjoyed my time there. It turns out that he was trying to ask if there was a cover charge, and since I wasn’t able to answer that for him, he told me that I’m “not being helpful.” He then starts talking to the guy behind me, who tells him the cover is $5, and he proceeds to verbally threaten the guy to give him $5. He nearly started a fight with the guy when a young, female stranger stepped in and gave him $5. Now what do you think – did she give this prick money because of his “charming personality?” Or was it that he was tall and handsome, and that maybe she was hoping to bang him or rope him into a relationship (in which she’d likely be the victim of domestic abuse)?
This leads to a much bigger issue: some women are drawn towards abusive men. Imagine how many men a woman like that has to reject until she finds the one Chad full of “raw energy” who is willing to put her in her place! I think that the accusation of victim blaming is a b.s. category because it very often is the case that those women deliberately seek out such guys. The safe, pudgy beta didn’t get her juices flowing, but a thug does. So, why can’t those women be responsible for their actions? If you walk around in a dangerous neighborhood, showing off your Rolex, I’d say you’re a dumbass and that you’re partly responsible if you get robbed because you deliberately thew caution out the window.
I know how all you guys have much respect for academia heh heh…
A recent academic paper came out talking about recent trends and data of the manosphere, which includes MGTOW. Their conclusion : online male communities are becoming more toxic. Perhaps this paper will be used to justify the quarantining of the red pill and mgtow reddit pages.
Link : https://arxiv.org/pdf/2001.07600.pdf
The former has been quarantined many months ago already. In any case, you can bet that this paper will be used in future mainstream media messaging by means of the tired “studies have shown”-argument. I skimmed the first few pages, and just couldn’t shake off the impression that the authors had their conclusion already formed before they did any of their work. Academia is such bullshit nowadays. It’s little more than an institutionalized mouthpiece of leftist/liberal causes.
EDIT: r/mgtow has been quarantined as well, as I just learned.
What’s your take on the new coronavirus (2019-nCoV)? I think people aren’t alarmed enough. This thing could end up being worse than the Spanish Flu.
About two decades ago, SARS was active for about 9 months. 2019-nCoV has already killed more people than SARS, and in just about one month. The real death toll may be a multiple of the reported figure of roughly 900. I think there is a non-trivial chance that we’ll enter a recession that’ll last one to two years. In a pessimistic scenario, we may furthermore end up with a few million dead. As a cynic, I’d now point out that the elderly are the most affected, and since Western welfare states are effectively bankrupt, a rapid dwindling of that demographic is nothing our wise and benevolent rulers would be particularly concerned about, which may explain why some Western governments have been so sluggish in closing their borders and quarantining people.
I’m definitely concerned about it. I’ve already began some preparations (food and supplies etc.) I was watching a Molyneux video and he was siting a small non peer reviewed study that basically concluded that perhaps Asian races are most affected due to the virus being able to attach more readily to the lungs (something to do with an inhibitory enzyme, don’t quote me on it). So, that may be something to consider. I work in a hospital, also, so if it gets bad around my neck of the woods I may end up suffering through it. Wish me luck!
Like you said, a recession is a very real possibility. As well as food shortages especially during a panic, so everybody should plan accordingly.
I read about that issue. 2019-nCoV is related to SARS, which likewise also disproportionally affected Asians. It is very unfortunate that our mainstream media do not report on race because in the case of these viruses it is of utmost importance that some races are more at risk than others.
Prepping is good. I’d also recommend avoiding travel as far as possible. Avoiding crowds is certainly also a good idea. Healthcare workers are arguably most at risk. Maybe look into taking unpaid leave, if that is a possibility, and even if not, losing your job is not nearly as bad as losing your life.
That’s a tough call. I could possibly go part time and work as little as 1 or 2 days a month, but still. Honestly man, I’m just hoping for the best. Worst case scenario, I’ve made my peace with death in advance. I wish everyone on this blog the best of outcomes.
Yes, making peace with death I’d warmly recommend, not just because of 2019-nCoV. Instead, we are all going to die. Yet, the average person leads such a rudderless life that you can be forgiven for thinking they have ten lifetimes at their disposal.
P.S. I wonder if antivirals found in nature could be effective in at least promoting recovery, if not, possibly preventing illness. I think high quality coconut oil is touted as having some antiviral, antibacterial and antifungal properties. And also olive leaf extract tinctures are supposedly pretty potent. I’m not so sure about the essential oil fad, although there may be something to it. However, many essential oils on the market may actually be rancid or just shit quality. Lmk what you guys think.
I have not looked into it. However, according to my wife, who hails from Asia, the quality of many oils and herbs in the West is substandard, compared to what she can source at home. A big issue is probably the time needed to ship it or the effect of preservatives, which may also not be necessary if you get fresh produce every day.
I’ve been a member of an investing forum and years ago when it was more active we were discussing a virus that was then in the news (might have been SARS).
Anyway there was a virologist in the group and he said in his opinion it was a matter of when, not if The Big one will hit. Eventually a really bad one will come… Scary.
So I dug up that discussion. It was about Swine Flu, the H1N1 virus. There was a discussion on the possibility that the virus will evolve into a more deadly form. Here is a copy/paste.
Anyway, for viruses and bacteria alike, there are a few precursors to the evolution of a deadly strain:
1. The first precursor is that it can infect humans at all. This has to do with the proteins on the surface of the virus (that’s what the H and N codes are for), and whether they can interlock with structures on the outside membranes of our own cells. Clearly, this virus has no problem attaching and gaining entry into our host cells. Score one for the new virus.
2. The second is that it can survive inside the host cells, and avoid the innate immune system. Innate immunity is a broad, non specific way of fighting various invaders, and involves things like cytokines, release of H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide), and many others. It is used as the front line to fight bugs, while our adaptive immunity “learns” more specific tactics to fight the invader (vaccines help accelerate adaptive immunity).
Many bacteria and viruses have come up with mechanisms for avoiding innate immune defenses, such as immune evasion or hijacking control of immune responses. It is clear that this virus has one or more mechanisms to thwart the innate immune systems (at least for a while), so the only line of defense is adaptive immunity.
The reason so many health authorities are concerned about this virus is that our bodies have not seen anything like it before (except perhaps some older folks who were exposed to a similar pandemic in the 1950’s). So our adaptive immunity has a lot of learning to do before it will recognize this virus. Hence our cells are more susceptible than to other more familiar influenza viruses. Score two for the new virus.
3. The third is that it is readily transmissible from host to host. This has to do with many factors, including its location in the body (ie whether a cough/sneeze results in its expulsion into the air), how long it can survive outside a host (ie what kind of capsid or viral envelope it has), and how many viral particles are required to get an infection going (related to point #1 above). Since this virus spreads readily from host to host now, we have a third score for this virus.
4. The fourth and final factor in lethality is whether the virus gains some survival advantage by being more deadly to the host. This is really the only point left in question. I doubt anyone could conclusively say at this time whether this particular strain will or will not become more deadly as a side effect of gaining some further advantage.
I do a lot of computational modeling work (including some studies of viral assembly), and it is not like Sci Fi – the models are very limited in their ability to predict anything at present. It could go either way, since there are considerations on both sides of the issue.
On the side towards more deadly behavior, the virus is more likely to be transmitted host-to-host if the viral load is bigger, and it is more likely to achieve that if it readily gains entry to and avoids the immune system of human cells. Ultimately that means more cellular damage, and perhaps a more dramatic innate immune response. Countering that is the point by rogermexico, that if the virus kills the host prematurely, then the chances of transmission are lowered.
The “optimal” virus (from the virus perspective, not from ours) is one that generates “just enough” viral load, without killing most of its hosts prematurely. But even then, a big factor is how our bodies respond – whether we produce an overload of innate immune response as was the case for the 1918 flu.
So, from my own perspective, because this virus has passed the first 3 tests, it has significant potential for danger, even if it is not dangerous now. That does not mean it will turn dangerous, but that it could.
Your point about the virus seeing more hosts e.g. in airplanes, also has two sides. More transmission between more hosts means more virus particles that can explore the “mutation space” probabilistically, and perhaps come up with a more deadly mutation that has fitness advantage.
On the other side of this, if it passages through many hosts in a less virulent form, then those hosts may gain partial adaptive immunity towards the virus. If enough people gain adaptive immunity before the virus turns bad, then the resulting strain may not ever gain a widespread foothold, because it may have dramatically reduced infection rates.
My own take is that I am not too worried about this virus in its present form to mine or my families’ immediate health, but I am concerned about the longer-term ramifications. The world has many, many people living and working in close quarters with each other, and with animals. The potential for a much more lethal virus (or bacterium) to emerge from all of this is there. I think having a deadly pandemic of some sort is a matter of “when” not “if”. So Ash’s words about being prepared are spot on.
This is great. Thanks!
I think 2019-nCoV is an example of such an “optimal” virus due to its long incubation time of around two weeks.
I don’t get why those savages still eat wild animals and snakes and stuff. Death penalty should be adequate for that shit
yes I’m preparing. I have a three week trip booked I’m March for South Korea, Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia. I’m not sure if I should go as it seems too high risk as that’s basically the epicentre or the virus.
I’m also currently preparing for worst case scenario. I purchased proper masks with p100 filters, cleaning agents etc. Just need some more food and water.
It sucks that this is happening in our life time but sometime like this is necessary to bring balance to this work. Everything is so fucked up culturally and demographically that we need a reset. It’s either this or a war. I’d take a virus tbh.
The epidemic has not even peaked yet. I’d think carefully about going there.
Your last point is absolutely right. We need a good culling of the herd and to do that, a virus is preferable as it won’t wreck any infrastructure. I could now quip that infrastructure in large parts of the US and China is so bad it would need replacement anyway, so maybe a few bombs would be faster and cheaper.
The latest news is that apparently the incubation period is even longer than the already bad 2 weeks… Apparently up to 24 days.
Things I’ve stored away:
Rice, beans, lentils, oatmeal, canned meats, protein powder, dried fruit, greens powder, pure cocoa powder, coconut oil, nuts, peanut butter, sugar, honey, instant coffee, powdered milk, water, ramen noodles (lol) white vinegar, peroxide, rubbing alcohol, cheap whiskey & cigarettes, first aid kit.
Lmk what you guys think and if you have any ideas. Might get a hand gun for my safe.
This is a very good list. I’m missing potatoes. You could also stack up on various canned foods. You could use coffee as barter, so I’d get a few more packs. Also, have plenty of bottled water.
Whole potatoes? Or the dehydrated type?
In a cool, dark place you can store potatoes for months, so I’d go for that. I don’t know how long dehydrated potatoes last, but that sounds also like a good option.
Do you think it’s worth it to live with and/or marry a girl who you’re not crazy in love with but you do like and she treats you very well? We both don’t want kids and she is stable mentally as well as financially… something that is very difficult to find these days.
I totally would. Imo your spouse is only one part of your life. If she doesn’t get in the way of your other interests/enhances your ability to engage in them, then on the whole you come out on top.
Anyone here watching DARK?
In my experience it is very difficult to find girls that are both good looking and nice. Please don’t get me wrong. I don’t think physically attractive girls are any meaner than their less attractive counterparts at all. In fact, I hate that mindset. Just that most girls in general are mean in the West. And good looking girls are likewise hard to find. If you do find one, they are taken. Guys don’t tend to let those ones go, they know how lucky they are. Talking to a good looking girl with a great personality is euphoric……until you find out they have a boyfriend. It’s pretty frustrating.
Agreed. Imagine the euphoria that good looking girl with the great personality made you feel . Now think about how many guys she made feel that same exact way post puberty.
Tim Ferris wrote an article: 11 Reasons Not to Become Famous where he details the downsides of being internet famous like death threats and stalkers.
I know you’re far from Tim Ferris famous, but I wonder if you experienced any of these due to having a blog: Stalkers, Death threats, Harassment of family members and loved ones, Dating woes, Extortion attempts, Desperation messages and pleas for help, Kidnapping attempts, Impersonation, identity theft, etc., Attack and clickbait media, “Friends” with ulterior motives, Invasions of privacy. [All from the articles]
@Aaron of course!
The height of my Internet fame was when I took on PUA scammers, which ruffled a few feathers. I got a few not very believable threats of guys claiming they’d visit me and beat me up. One PUA (Vince Kelvin) called me on my private phone number, which I assume he got via one particular mutual acquaintance, and threatened he’d fly in an rape my sister, which gave me a good chuckle. To this day, I occasionally get pretty hateful emails and comments which don’t make it past the moderation queue. The first time I ever got one I was a bit baffled. These days, I wonder if something is wrong if I haven’t gotten one in a month. There was one guy whom I suspected was using multiple sockpuppets to post hateful comments. On my old blog over on Google’s Blogspot this was just a suspicion, but with the current WordPress installation, I can see the IP addresses of people, called this guy out on it and he buggered off, presumably for good.
Dating woes isn’t really an issue. Every woman I seriously dated, which weren’t a lot, I told about my blog and books. They didn’t really care about it. My first wife tried to make it an issue at one point, and that was one of the reasons I divorced her, but not the main one.
I got plenty of guys who launched appeals to pity in order to get free coaching. The entitlement I sometimes witness is beyond belief. One guy once wrote me a long email with the core argument being that I benefitted from help by others, at least to some extent, so if I helped him get better with women (free of charge, of course), I would “pay back the community for part of what it had done for me”. I should dig out that email.
Friends with ulterior motives is a problem of everybody with a modicum of success. I encounter lickspittles in my professional life who want to use me for personal gain. The most common instance is external recruiters who misrepresent both the company and you, the candidate, to each other. They are lying to you, hoping you’d pursue some opportunity, while they lie to the company, presenting you to be the ideal candidate. Another good example was when I gave a supposed friend of mine a referral for a job, and later learned that he had gravely misrepresented his career on his CV, exaggerating his achievements to a degree that I’d call fraudulent. In the end, he didn’t take the job but if he would have, I think I would have gotten into trouble because he would likely have gotten flagged during the background check.
Overall, the occasional encounter with weirdos online completely pales in comparison with my run-ins with Cluster-B women, some of which harmed my property, physically assaulted me, tried to kill me, stalk me, or cause all kinds of psychological terror, like threatening to go to the police and accuse me of rape if I did not do one particular thing. Compared to that, the occasional mean-spirited email is nothing. I shrug them off nowadays.
Thanks @Aaron that was interesting. Most interesting was that threats from real life crazy chicks were far more disturbing!
Still does the online stuff affect you psychologically at all? It must generate *some* stress, no?
Words on a screen written by some rando who hides behind a pseudonym don’t affect me. My reaction ranges from indifference to amusement. The latter is more common when someone does a “cold read” and tells me about how miserable my life is because I “lost my soul” due to womanizing, or some b.s. along those lines.
I know it’s not one-to-one with what you’ve written above, but I do change my CV – the work experience part. It’s bit of cheating and don’t recommend it to anyone who know don’t know their stuff.
For example I put that I’ve worked two years for one company instead of actual one year. I do it to be invited for the 1st phase of interview conducted by HR professional, without it I wouldn’t be even invited – because they want someone with 2 years of work experience with Java and I have 1 year.
Of course the next step is to pass an interview with technical professional and here it is not possible to cheat.
So what’s your plan when they do a reference check and find out that you’ve lied on your CV?
The case I described was pretty bad: the dude worked for two years, while studying, part-time at some company. The extent was a few hours a week, but also with weeks and months without any work, plus one summer of full-time work. He described this as two years of full-time work while studying on the side. He didn’t even have an interest in the position I referred him for. As it turned out, he only wanted a letter of intent to use it for salary negotiations. To me, this was shockingly bad behavior.
Everyone cheats! So don’t feel bad! My CV is also not entirely correct. Pozdrowienia.
Cheaters tell themselves that everybody cheats.
“So what’s your plan when they do a reference check and find out that you’ve lied on your CV?”
In Poland it happens very rarely. I have had only one background-checking, and it consisted of sending emails of my past team-leaders to them with approval that I’ve worked for them. This was the time when I was telling the truth in my CV.
Secondly I think if you are very good technically and because of that you will bring profit(money) to the company with it they would not care that much.
Anyway, I won’t do it anymore because now I have the needed experience.
Btw. this requirements that they need 2 or any years of experienced is very shitty – everyone has different capabilities and so on. There are people who work in some industry for a very long time and know less than some intern. If they put more objective requirements I would not cheat at all.
I agree with your concerns regarding experience. It is a fairly meaningless metric. Lack of intelligence, a poor work ethic, and an unwillingness to learn will guarantee that some people never improve. They were bad when they started, and they will be bad employees for as long as they are in the industry. Some of the worst code I have ever seen, by the way, was written by an “industry veteran” and “one of our most prized assets” with 25 years of experience under his belt.
That being said, if you knowingly make false statements, depending on their extent, you can get dismissed. It’s one thing to tell some HR ditz who is just reading off a script, asking you if you have X years of experience in some technology, that this is indeed the case but quite another to fabricate sections on your CV.
By the way, how do you measure experience anyway? If you have one guy who used some technology occasionally over three years versus one who did a very substantial project in it that took six months, then I’d say the latter may be the much better candidate. The hiring manager should understand it, assuming they have a technical background. Your average HR drone will not.
I will confess to a similar sin… a person I knew needed some work xp, any experience (he was looking for his 1st job) so I let him put me as a reference and allowed him to claim he worked 2 years under me. In my defense, we only claimed he worked in an entry level position, we just wanted to establish he was a reliable guy, which i knew he was.
He now works in after sales in a big car dealership. I still get very good offers from him for cars and pickup trucks I dont really want. 🙂
Measuring experience is not easy. .
Like you said: working in project X will be always different than working in project Y. One project can be very boring and/or repetitive and/or people in the team lack skills/don’t care , whearas in the different project one person works with the bests in the field and have to learn new things constantly.
This were two extremes, but I’ve heard about people who play video games or watch Netflix at work or do who knows what.
Those jobs are horrible. In the extreme, they arguably don’t exist, but you can end up in a situation where you don’t get to do any real work for a few days or even a week or two because of external factors. Yet, you still have to come to the office and warm your chair. I had such a problem once where my manager had beef with another manager who, in turn, refused to grant me some privileges in the system, which I would have needed to effectively do my work. It was some of the biggest corporate b.s. I ever witnessed and one of the reasons why I left that place.
I’ve talked today with a coworker about this topic. He said that corporation can have some tools that parse CV and decide whether to pass a candidature forward or not.
I know about this. I remember attending a recruiting event by a big company over a decade ago where we were told that we have to use certain keywords to make it through the filter, which I found really shady. Today, screening is almost mandatory because it is so easy to apply to a job online. Nobody could justify the resources to skim hundreds of CVs a week.
Really, really scary video. Webcam network owner comes to Stefan Molyneux interview to talk about a warning he gave to simps…
I didn’t realize simping was this bad. Horrible stuff. Touches on a lot of stuff Aaron has covered as well.
Unbelievable! I feel like these guys are beyond help. And I’m only 10 minutes in…
I googled simp, and just had to share this “definition” from ud:
Hahahahahaha XD seriously made me laugh.
This was a really insightful video, in particular when they covered the business side of things. I chuckled when that dude talked about the cam girl typing on a keyboard that is not connected while someone else who is better at English actually writes in the chat, or that part about him employing women just to text guys who think they are talking to some particular camgirl.
Does anyone have this internal voice. I don’t know how to explain it but at times when I’m faced with a situation man or woman, work or personal life. I have my initial thought/ response that I would like to say, then as I dwell on it I feel as if it is beta or something and end up either taking a different approach or doing nothing at all.
Ex. A close friend of mine was acting like a bitch over the phone due to some argument we were having and he hung up.
I wanted to call him back later and ask him why he’s acting so emotional and feminine.
But then I thought fuck it that’s probably beta if i ask him that etc. I’ll just let it go…
But then I question myself wether or not that was the right approach.
I hope this makes sense but I guess my question is how do you guys know you’re response to a situation is appropriate? (Not sure how to word the question)
I very rarely have those moments with male friends or acqusintances. But if it happens, I like to talk about it over some beers. My style is quite direct and no bullshit, but always open to be criticized.
Its like ok, “we are dudes, lets drink some and tell me whats on your mind. Wont judge you.”
It helps a lot if you honestly own up to your own failures and shortcomings, which I do.
Bottom line, guys do have feelings and sometimes need to work tjem over with other guys. Guys can better understand guys troubles.
I am going through this right now as one of my employees is going through a divorce.
My favorite American president of all time is Theodore Roosevelt. And his most famous quote is, “Speak softly and carry a big stick.” Essentially meaning, don’t start any bullshit with other nations, but be ready militarily for any violation of your own sovereignty to kick ass if you need to. He sailed an elite naval fleet around the world with this very message. They not only flew the and stripes but a white flag as well, meaning ✌
This is not just a lesson in foreign policy, but a lesson for men personally. Don’t be a pacifist hippie. But don’t be an asshole either. Be capable and confident to kick some ass when necessary, but don’t start any shit. I think this is a lesson in masculinity, and Teddy Roosevelt was the most masculine president in US history.
Okay, some “Wall Porn.” Here’s a copy paste of a facebook post from a chick I used to bang about 10 years ago. I mean it’s like I know all this stupid shit they post, but it just never ceases to amuse and amaze!
In case you missed it on 60 Minutes, this is what Andy Rooney thinks about women near or over 40:
“As I grow in age, I value women near or over 40 most of all. Here are just a few reasons why:
A woman near or over 40 will never wake you in the middle of the night and ask, ‘What are you thinking?’ She doesn’t care what you think.
If a woman near or over 40 doesn’t want to watch the game, she doesn’t sit around whining about it. She does something she wants to do, and it’s usually more interesting.
Women near or over 40 are dignified. They seldom have a screaming match with you at the opera or in the middle of an expensive restaurant. Of course, if you deserve it, they won’t hesitate to shoot you if they think they can get away with it.
Older women are generous with praise, often undeserved. They know what it’s like to be unappreciated.
Women get psychic as they age. You never have to confess your sins to a woman near or over 40.
Once you get past a wrinkle or two, a woman near or over 40 is far sexier than her younger counterpart.
Older women are forthright and honest. They’ll tell you right off if you are a jerk, if you are acting like one. You don’t ever have to wonder where you stand with her.
Yes, we praise women near or over 40 for a multitude of reasons. Unfortunately, it’s not reciprocal. For every stunning, smart, well-coiffed, hot woman near or over 40, there is a bald, paunchy relic in yellow pants making a fool of himself with some 22-year old waitress. Ladies, I apologize.”
I recently had someone buy me a Nintendo Switch and some other things for Valentine’s Day, but that’s another story lmao. I went to a big store chain that you’ve probably all been to before to stock up on groceries and supplies. I was also grabbing some non perishable items for storage and figured I’d grab some games since I rarely ever splurge on myself.
Anyways, I get to the checkout and the cashier is about 6/10 chick with a nice-looking body. I try to make some small talk just for the hell of it but she isn’t really biting and overall isn’t acting friendly at all, rather annoyed actually. That is until she rings up all my stuff and the total easily surpasses her weekly salary. She comments, “wow, I didn’t think the total was going to be that much. Teehee :)”
She then even helped me place some bags in my cart lol. What a basic bitch.
Lol. Such a nice illustrative story. Loved it.
Glad you enjoyed it, dude! Thinking back in hindsight it probably wouldn’t even be worth it to pursue. She’d probably require a proper courtship and all after flashing some cash, even if she was initially dtf.
Has this been a thing your guys’ experience? Like a chick might be down to fuck, but when she finds out you’re a good LTR/ATM prospect she tries to put you on the dating track?
Has anyone actually lied or omitted what they do and tried to conceal how well of they are for this reason? It seems like a lot of extra work but I wonder…
This is very common. I had clients whom I’ve advised on toning down their lifestyle because the moment the women saw their house, they turned into prudes. I’ve heard amusing stories of women following them home for a one-night stand who then wanted to shift gears into the dating track. Suddenly sex was completely off the table.
If you’re really well off, you may want to consider renting a small apartment that you use for hook-ups. Maybe rent it out via Airbnb to at least break even.
I’ve noticed a couple times when chicks in my company took notice initially when I had moved up the ladder, but as far as a chick being dtf based off looks and then suddenly switching gears, not really in my case. Not that it doesn’t happen, but I’ve always either gotten quick lays, or it never happens even if she hints at (or sometimes overtly states) the possibility.
I’ve had it where a chick will send nudes and talk about how she wants to be choked and throat fucked, but if she doesn’t meet up to fuck that day or very soon after, then it just never happens. Possibly, in these cases, they had switched gears and I could have played the long game and gotten some. But I generally just get super bored and put it down quickly after the first flake or two. Idk honestly. I try not to analyze their behavior too much. I either get sex, or I go back to what I was initially doing before chasing tail.
When a woman sends you very sexual messages, and isn’t just doing so to cock-tease you, you need to strike fast. It’s basically a first come, first served situation. If you hesitate, she’ll view it as weak and lose attraction for you. This is particularly the case is she’s talking to Chad who is available on short notice.
Great story! It reminds me of this encounter here:
Maybe I should trying saying I’m an Uber driver from now on just to see what happens :))
The flip side though is that some chicks will fuck you quick hoping to get you hooked on their pussy and rope you into an LTR. Ultimately they’ll be disappointed, of course. These chicks can quickly get annoying with their demands to move the relationship forward, but you can get a few weeks or months of fucking out of them before moving on.
I think women who are willing to have sex quickly know that this is not the best way to rope a guy into a relationship as they have gotten pumped-and-dumped too many times. Of course, you’ll always find exceptions, but I think the behavior we have been discussing holds in general.
It may be that the girls are dtf horny because their period is close, and therefore your window of opportunity is very limited. They may either masturbate or find some other guy to cover that temporary urge.
I have an occasional fuckbuddy who sends me unsolicited nudes every time she is close to her period, and her sex talk ramps up by 100% around those days. Its like clockwork, it never fails. If I dont have time to service her that month, she just fingers herself (and sometimes sends me a video of that as well).
Aaron, have you checked out that WWII movie When Trumpets Fade yet?
Not yet. It’s on my list, though. The last few months I’ve been heavily pushing my comfort zone, which kept me from writing as much as I would have liked, or making much progress on my various to-do lists.
I was wondering when Aaron would comment something on the Coronavirus crisis, what with his sympathetic views about the DEE. Kudos to him for being objective about him.
I have the feeling some of the regulars here were refraining from touching the subject for the same reason. LOL
I don’t mind people criticizing me at all, or raising issues I may hold conflicting opinions on. In fact, I welcome it because good, reasoned debate is very difficult to find nowadays. It’s almost gone in real life because of SJW-terrorism, and many online venues have been shut down or heavily censored.
@Alek Novy: DEE = Dog-Eater Empire.
A.k.a., the People’s Republic of China.
BTW, this comment might be a bit silly, but back in the days when the forum was very active (and the blog was on Blogspot), I could easily identify all the regulars: Isidia, Cani, Alek Novy, Topher (who actually showed his face), Pepelepew, Stelar, etc. by the background and stories they shared or even their writing style.
Most of them come here once a year or something, if at all (except for Alek), and the new regulars seem to kind of blend for me, it’s hard to single them out. Of course there’s my fellow “Latinx” Yarara, and the relatively recent addition of GoodLookingAndSleazy, the self-admitted American expert on antigame yet handsome. But the rest, would you mind talking a bit about yourself in a subthread here?
Pickernanny, you’re the Polish guy, right? Martin (another recent addition) is the Austrian whoremonger. I’m the former Latin 29 year old virgin BTW, haha.
I was raised in U.S. I was around back during the forum’s heyday under a different pseudonym, but I wasn’t a significant influence of anything. Just a young guy trying to get laid and subsequently bash PUAs. I remember all those guys from your first paragraph. I remember Stelar had some great advice but was a true bastard lmao. He had mentioned that he had become ill or something there towards the end. I wonder what became of him.
Stelar was one of the most interesting characters on my forum. He invited me to visit him, and so did a few other guys. Back then, however, I was working hard on getting my life back on track, so I couldn’t accept any of those invitations. This reminds me of a post I wanted to write on the idea of the “male brotherhood” I often see thrown around in the MGTOW and red-pill communities. Those brotherhoods are short-lived. Enjoy them while you can because life will make you and your buddies drift apart.
Dont worry buddy, I am still around reading. Just dont have much to say (said it all on the forum, or others have said it on the blog) or time to write alot (which I used to on the forum).
The more time you spend with women, the more you understand them and observe them and how society has changed. The harder it is to find a woman that is worth investing my time and resources and emotions into for a relationship/marriage etc. The older and experience I get the more I value my time instead of spending it with women.
I am probably the oldest Sleazy admirer here, hence the name Old Anon. I was lurking on mASF for about six months prior to Sleazy’s arrival in 2007. Watching him, Cosy, and TVA Oslo evolve and eventually dismantle the PUA mystique was quite interesting at the time. In fact, there were a lot of interesting things going on in that forum. It’s a shame that it’s completely gone now.
I have been mostly lurking on his blog and forum until very recently due to a variety of mental and emotional issues that l have been slowly resolving on my own over the years.
I’m polish guy 🙂 .
My first occurrence with Aaron was when I was 19 or 20 years old I think. I am 28 right now.
I remember reading PUA stuff at that time – it was really horrible what they’ve recommended, but nonetheless I’ve tried some of what they were claimed “techniques”. During that time I’ve found excellent Arron’s book ‘Debunking the seduction community’. It has really opened my eyes. I immediately discarded the PUA stuff. I didn’t know at that time that Aaron has blog. I’ve found this blog one or two years ago. And I love it. Actually, I am bit sad nowadays because I’ve read all of his articles and can’t find any blog as good as his.
What country is Alek from?
Also what happened to Ben from Netherland? I’ve enjoyed reading his satiric posts.
Over the years, I got a few messages from guys who told me that they have read every single post and article by me they could find, i.e. mASF, my past and current blog, my forum, the occasional interview I gave, and my the occasional post I made on other forums. I find this interesting because in many posts I articulate a thought I recently had. Yet, apparently, quite a lot of what I have written over the years is relevant even years later.
Thanks for the responses Michal, Pickernanny and Old Anon, I won’t lose sight of you in the background from now on. 🙂
And hey Cani!
I’m in my thirties, and I live in the Northeastern United States.
I have been reading Sleazy’s books and posts since 2011 or so, and I began reading them at a time in which my foundations were not particularly strong and I was quite inexperienced. After some serious effort to get my foundations in place, I started dating in a monogamous fashion. I did a one-time consultation session with Sleazy in 2015, and while I got good advice, I ultimately ended up continuing the whole monogamy thing. In 2018, I wrote a post on the forum, “Should I get it out of my system?” The contents of that post, and its responses, are a tangential reason behind why my girlfriend and I broke up that year.
Starting in 2019, I have been an ongoing coaching client of Sleazy. With his help, I’ve racked up 26 notches, many of them gorgeous women 10 – 15 years younger than me. Most of my success has been from online dating, but I’ve been putting forth a serious effort toward night game, and may start making that a larger part of my strategy.
I never posted very much online (and when I have, it’s been under throwaway handles), although I’ve been lurking online communities going back to the Usenet days. I was part of a lair in a different city when I was in college, doing Neil Strauss- style game, and got a total of zero lays from that shit. Reading Debunking the Seduction Community was quite the eye opener for me, and my first suggestion to anyone with dating woes is that they read Minimal Game.
Let me publicly state that it has been a great joy to work with you. My initial impression of you was that you have a lot of potential, and certainly a lot more than you realized yourself at that point. You were basically a diamond in the rough. It has been very rewarding for me to serve you as a guide and mentor.
An other one guys: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/evjkdw/she-helped-expose-girls-do-porn-but-she-can-never-outrun-what-it-did-to-her
Thots got fucked for money on cam, later realised that the whole world can see those videos, now they are “victims”. 13 million dollar in compensation for 22 women. The sick part is, that the women the text is about has been exposed to be web cam whore way before the porn shoots…
It’s mind-numbing. Those women found “model”-“jobs” ads on craigslist(!), than they agreed to fly across america, there they’ve been told that it’s an adult model job and they ended up in porn.
Those porn guys have been charged for sex trafficking. I mean how ridiculous is that? They voluntarily boarded a plane following a conversation from craigslist.
What I don’t get is, what is the fucking point to let women get away with everything? There is not a single rational reason to do so. Where is the benefit for society? We went from shaving and beating up women on public places for misbehaviour to let them get away with every bullshit you can imagine.
This is a core reason for the decline of society. We don’t set standards for anybody. I’m not only talking about women who are told to be promiscuous or kids who can eat as much candy as they want. It’s affecting the workforce, too. Millennials are infamous for their impunctuality and unreliability. Nowadays, when business contacts don’t want to deal with you, they just “ghost” you and you sometimes have to go around them by pestering their manager. You literally have to prod some of those slackers to do anything.
I read the article, these girls were dumb beyond belief. That was one shady outfit, red flags all over the place. They went all alone to have sex withanonymous strangers for money? They vetted them by asking girls these guys introduced to them? And they signed a bunch of legal papers without reading them?? Some people really need to be protected from themselves.
The sex trafficking charges are nonsense, it may stick because of the way the laws are worded, but in no world is that sex trafficking. They went willingly, they signed up to have sex on camera, and if they wanted to stop, they got threatened with…. not getting paid! Shock and horror! I just realized I am being trafficked by my bosses for 5 days a week! Every week! ?
But seriously, the guys were scammers and sleazebags. They are right to be sued for fraud and misrepresentation.
Thanks for remembering me bro, even if it is for anti-game 🙂 Like the Joker I’m pondering whether my life is a tragedy or a comedy. Last time we talked about it Old Anon had some pretty good stories, so I thought I’d bring up another that just came back to me.
So I’m on a flight from Sacramento, CA back to San Diego on Christmas night. A stourtes comes up to me and asks if I need anything (she was a little older than myself but quite attractive). I was reading a book that I received for Christmas. I said no thank you. She comes back and says. “Are you sure, how about a drink?” I say “No thanks, I’m good.” She comes back again and says, “Are you sure you don’t want a drink? I can give you a free one.” I said “really!?” She said “Yeah, it’s Christmas!” I said “hmmmm, sure!” I take the freebe, drink it and continue to read my book, thinking she only offered because it was Christmas.
Hey guys as mentioned above I had a trip planned to south east asia for three weeks though im not sure if i should go now due to the coronavirus scare. The thing is this, based on the facts we know, the virus spreads fairly easy and is high contagious, therefore wether I go or not I am most likely to get the virus.
What would you guys do, stay and wait till all of this dies down or just fuck it and go?
Im really torn and i already spent the money on the entire trip and i may not get it back. Plus i shouldn’t let fear of this shit hold me back, not sure what to do.
What if you get sick abroad and quarantined? Then your trip ends up being a month or more than you planned, and you don’t have access to adequate healthcare?
Which country, or countries, did you plan to visit?
I would likewise advise you to stay home because 2019-nCoV has not peaked yet. SARS took about nine months to run its course. In contrast, 2019-nCoV is a lot worse and we are only about two months in.
Also, even if the countries you intend to visit only have a few cases: we are not talking about first-world countries, so the reporting may be lacking, doctors may not make correct diagnoses, and hygiene may be lacking as well. Thus, the situation on the ground could be a lot worse than you’re suspecting, even if going by official numbers.
Lastly, your problem boils down to a risk assessment. We are talking about a relatively low risk but one with potentially devastating consequences. If you don’t go, you may lose some or all of the money. Yet, if you do go and fall sick, you may lose a lot more money, or worse.
I am in the same boat, or at least a similar one, as I had a trip to SE Asia planned myself, which I have now postponed.
Thanks for the reply guys.
The plan was to go to South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand and Cambodia.
I also believe that they are under representing the actual numbers as well. I’m just wondering if my reaction to this is normal and I’m not overacting. My friend who I’m supposed to go with isn’t worried at all but he’s also clueless as to what is going on and hasn’t done any reading on the coronavirus.
I wouldn’t rely on the judgment of normies on anything. In this particular case, your friend’s ignorance isn’t bliss. You can probably guess what would happen if you went on this trip and either of you caught 2019-nCoV.
Thanks for confirming what I’ve been thinking. I told my friend I’m not going and will hopefully get a refund from the airlines.
I think you made the right choice. There has been a massive spike in infections in South Korea just yesterday. This virus is out of control. We are not even close to the peak yet.
Alabama lawmaker proposes mandatory vasectomy law for men past the age of 50 or who have had 3 children, a direct retaliation for abortion ban.
I seriously doubt a law like this would be passed in Alabama, but I would not be surprised if California ended up implementing some bullshit like that. Who knows? I honestly wouldn’t be surprised at this point.
This is utterly ridiculous. Note that the two cases aren’t even equivalent. Let me guess: the lawmaker is a menopausal woman, right?
I think that in general, assuming that the West only going to get crazier is a safe bet. This has been a good assumption for the last 50 years.
I wouldn’t be surprised at anything the Californian government does now days. California has the worst politicians in the US (mostly the women). Everybody is leaving. The people are totally lost and apothetic. I would bet money that most Californians don’t know who there own governor is. Talk about Clown World……I live and breath it every day.
As soon as California started placing cancer warnings on coffee, I realized it was time for the state to secede from the Union. Apparently the cancer warnings were removed, but there’s been some serious talk about #CalExit anyway, and I don’t see why we shouldn’t just let them leave.
One of these things is not like the other. You can’t force mandatory surgical procedures on people.
The Peoples Republic of Commiefornia is getting more ridiculous by the day. That being said, there is less than zero chance of secession. Republicans would never allow it,just like last time
Ironically, without Californian electoral votes, the rest of the USA would not see a Democrat elected president for the rest of the century.
A new one: The brow lift…
Almost fall of the chair laughing by reading this headline:
‘Sex robots may cause psychological damage’
Yeah as if the real deal is better for your psychy…
(original article: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51330261)
Why do we never get headlines like, “Dating May Lead to Depression”, “Relationships May Lead to Financial Instability” or “Marriage May Make Financial Independence Impossible”? Gee, I wonder.
“If you hesitate, she’ll lose attraction for you. This is particularly the case is she’s talking to Chad who is available on short notice”.
1. On a related note, I have always wonder about the difference between a woman losing “attraction” vs “interest”. You have emphasized over the years that guys cannot build or create “attraction”. That being said, how can a woman lose attraction to a guy if attraction cannot be build or created in the first place?
2. Wouldn’t it be more sensible to say that women “lost” interest, or some how men kill a woman’s level of “interest” by displaying certain unattractive beahviours?
Alek made a brief example about attraction and interest. He gave an example in one of your previous threads. For instance:
Joe meets Stacy
Joe finds Stacy Attractive
Stacy has bad breath
Joe did NOT LOSE “Attraction” to Stacy
Joe Lost “Interest” in Stacy.
Joe level of Attraction to Stacy remained the same, thus, his level of interest changed.
3. This being the case, when a woman chooses not to have sex, or date anymore, ghost you, or not return your phone calls anymore, is this a case where a woman simply lost interest rather than attraction?
4. Is there a difference in how women lose interest and/or attraction to an Average Guy vs a Chad?
When I think and hear of attraction I associated with physical looks. Of course, one can lose attraction to someone if they lost their sex appeal and aren’t physically attractive anymore.
5. Is Attraction and Interest one of those topics that most people seem not to understand their distinctive functionality and their differences?
6. I recall that in one of your articles you stated that “once a woman is done, she is done”. However, I have often seen from Relationship Expert that claim that they can help any guy get their ex back. They often sell their products with the following titles.
-Re-attract your ex
-How to get her to chase you
-Get her to become obsess with you
-How to make a woman want you sexually
-Using mystery to boost attraction
-How to make her want you more
-How to Attract Women, and the list goes on…
Are the above issues more of sparking a woman’s level of interest rather than attraction?
Is there a difference between sending you a donation between your gmail and yandex account? Apparently, I have both your gmail and yandex in my paypal. Is there one account you prefer over the other?
Both email addresses are tied to the same PayPal account. It does not matter which one you use. I have a few long-term clients who use my old email address, which is the reason that address is still active.
I did make a donation, but apparently it was under your gmail. In the past, I used your yandex.
Thank you very much for your donation. I really appreciate it.
What do they lose if you don’t move quickly enough?
They lose interest, not attraction… HOWEVER, their interest goes into such an extreme negative, that it might as well be the same as having lost attraction.
Not moving quickly enough is probably the best way to guarantee a girl never sleeps with you.
Alek Novy summed up the difference between interest and attraction nicely already. Also, let me add that women never get the hots for Joe Average. Them settling for such guys is the consequence of cold calculations.
I don’t think you can actively get our ex back if she has moved on. However, what commonly happens is that she leaves the guy once she believes she has secured a better one. This is called monkey-branching. However, in case that guy gets fed up with her or does not really want to commit, she will most commonly try to “boomerang” back to the previous guy. This is, again, the result of her scheming.
Alek is so spot on this topic it is truly amazing and eye opening. Not to mention LIBERATING (for me at least). It’s like exiting Plato’s cave.
A friend of mine is going through a divorce and is getting back into the game. He had this little young hottie hanging all over him, calling him love and gave him her phone number and said “text me!”
Well, that went on for a few days before she just stopped replying to his memes. He was so dumbfounded and showed me the msgs saying that she had ghosted him. I told him, “why didn’t ask her for coffee or to come over for a movie or something.” It was like something clicked. I think guys are so afraid of rejection sometimes that they just don’t naturally follow up like they should on a sure thing. Or they mistakenly believe that women appreciate it when you ‘respect them’ and take it slow.
Let’s hope he’ll learn from this. I think the bigger issue is that they enjoy the attention they are getting too much, which makes them afraid to escalate as they lack confidence. Obviously, if they don’t escalate, they’ll invariably lose the girl so if you don’t make a move, you’ll always lose.
@arron or Alek – so basically, if you’re an average Joe then really there is no point of ever committing to a LTR or getting married as the woman will really never love you or be loyal? She will only be using you as a resource which is worse then her gay bitch friend.
This is a great comment! Yes, you are right, and this is a horrible plack pill to swallow for the average guy. A Plain Jane does not get wet for Joe Average.
For the second time in a few short weeks, I had a girl whom I had never met before but who had talked with on Tinder invite herself directly over to my place on a few hours notice, only for me to find out that she is not DTF.
Girl matches with guy on Tinder. Girl and guy chat off and on for a bit. Then, last minute, girl asks if she can come over that day. Everyone knows what that sounds like – it sounds like, “Hey, I’m horny right now, I want to come over so you can fuck me” – although women are never quite as explicit.
Yet, for both of these women, when I brought them in, they acted cold and disinterested (at least in terms of their body language), and acted as if they didn’t invite themselves over for sex, just to talk to me. In the most recent case, making a move as innocent as putting my arm around the girl prompted her to use the bathroom and then ask to leave.
At surface glance, I might be tempted to think that the girl didn’t find me as attractive in real life as she did in her pictures. Or maybe she got a severe case of anxiety realizing that I’m not going to pussyfoot around making a move, and that I expect to be getting laid.
But I have an alternate hypothesis, and I’m wondering what you think of this. In both cases, the girls, who previously had annoyed me by being not willing to commit to any plans, happened to be in my neighborhood. The most recent one had been getting drinks with her friend. Maybe she figured, while I’m in his neighborhood, I might as well meet him and see if there’s chemistry. And maybe she assumed, correctly, that if she asked me to join her for drinks, I wouldn’t do it on an hour’s notice, but that if she dangled the prospect of sex, by inviting herself directly over, I’d clear my schedule. What she didn’t realize is that I don’t let anyone waste my time, and she can leave if she misleads me concerning her intentions.
What’s funny is, I’ve had girls come straight over for sex, and sex is indeed what we did. The hilarious part about those instances is that there was some deception on their part as well in those cases. One girl told me she was just looking for “fun,” came straight over for sex, and then wouldn’t leave, and instantly started treating me like a boyfriend, trying to talk to me every day. Another girl invited me straight over to her place, and grilled me in the style of a “boyfriend interview” before letting me fuck her. So it appears women use the bait-and-switch all the time of getting you to meet them for what you think is a hookup, only for it to turn out to be something different entirely. I just found these latest two encounters to be so unusual (and infuriating) since the girls weren’t even down to fuck.
We just very recently touched on this. We discussed that chicks can be DTF, but then put you on the dating track if they find out you’re loaded or even above average in resources like say upper middle class. I proposed that the flip side is that chicks will sometimes give up the pussy quickly in order to get you hooked or in order to “claim” you.
Aaron’s opinion was that while this quickfuck strategy happens, the dominant strategy is withhold pussy. Reason being that quickfuck chicks have been pumped and dumped many times and eventually have been frustrated and gone to withhold pussy. I would say that if you catch them prior to them getting frustrated, then… Which suggests that younger, less experienced chicks are more likely to try this strategy.
But as Pickernanny (I think it was him) said: I try not to analyze this too much. Either way she’s either fucking fast or she isn’t. One may want tone down his wealth displays if one finds DTF chicks are switching over to the dating track when they find out about said wealth.
I have to say, I sometimes hate having these discussions in the comments section. Going back to the forum would be more convenient. Topics are nice. The ability to see all unread messages is nice. Here I have to click on comments in the sidebar and just kinda see if it’s a new one or an old one. I guess there is the “Notify me of follow-up comments by email.” option, but I still think a forum is a better user experience for discussions.
I am not sure if it’s some kind of an intentional thing where only the highly motived will participate or if it just naturally developed this way, but I sure would prefer a forum. I’ve seen some wordpress forum plugins that let you integrate your blog such that every new post creates a new forum topic.
Isn’t there some kind of service that’s like a forum that people use now? Discord or Patreon some shit like that. I think forums are generally dead now
In-depth conversations online are getting harder to find. Forums are dead. Blogs are not as active as they used to be. Reddit and Facebook didn’t replace forums in that regard. They are more at the level of YouTube comments. Discord is for chats. It’s basically IRC with a lot of makeup on.
I like the fact that the comments are limiting. That’s a good thing. A forum would turn many of us into keyboard jockeys. The comments format imposes a natural limitation.
This is a good suggestion, which I thought about. I think forums, in general, are dead, so that is not a viable option. My current idea is to start a new category on this blog, similar to the Open Thread, where you guys can post longer comments. I could take those comments and turn them into posts, e.g. “Reader Discussion: How do I avoid the Provider Track? (by X.)”, followed by the original comment. This would address the issue of navigability. I’ll post an update soon.
As the US presidential election nears, I have made the decision that I will definitely not vote for Donald Trump again. He took advantage of seething working class white male voters. Mostly on the topics of illegal immigration I and outsourcing. Dude didn’t do a goddamn thing. Except bomb Syria and drone strike that Iranian general (of course to please Zionists). He fired the very people who got him elected like Steve Bannon and Jeff Sessions. I’m sick of America being lied to and nothing ever changing. I might sit this one out like I did in 2012.
I dont vote in the US, so I dont have much of a stake in this. But I would argue he did quite a bit in terms of rattling the sclerotic political structures in the US. He also quickly encountered structural limits to what he can do, both domestically and internationally, but to his merit he kept probing and pushing.
He is dead wrong on plenty of things (and likely corrupt too), just like most politicians, but he doesnt get a pass from the press and academia (google Trump Derangement Syndrome), so it looks worse than it actually is. But the economy has been doing reasonably well, even in spite of the costly trade war with China (not saying he was wrong there, but it could have been better handled). And the republican appointments to the Supreme Court and the judicial system more generally will likely constitute a good check on power for the time Democrats are back in control. Especially if he gets reelected (which seems likely, at least for now), he will probably get to appoint another judge, maybe two, to the Supreme Court. The oldest judges most likely to retire or die are progressives (Bader Ginsburg wont live much longer I think), so SCOTUS could turn heavily conservative for the next couple decades.
In all, I would say he was more beneficial for the US domestically, internationally not so much (not that Obama or Bush were any better).