I think it’s safe to assume that most guys would not make empty promises to a woman to get her into bed and, most importantly, not try to pump-and-dump a woman who is only interested in having a serious relationship. After all, those women make you jump through a lot of hoops and if you’re not willing to consider commitment, you’ll bail because it just does not make a lot of sense to invest a lot of time and money into a woman you are not really interested in. Yet, you will want to get your sexual needs met somehow, which means that you still need women for casual sex.
The other day it struck me that there is an excellent comparison between women for casual sex and today’s smartphone games. Many smartphone games come in two varieties: a supposedly free one that does not cost any money but which offers a sup-par experience. You get ads shoved in your face and there are other hurdles to make sure you have a bad experience, like disabling certain features or limiting how often you can do certain things within an arbitrary time frame. Gee, this sounds awfully familiar already! In contrast, the premium version of the same game provides a different value proposition: you put down a chunk of money and in contrast, all the “nag screens” (yes, that’s really the term used in this industry) and limitations go away. Some games ask you for a one-time fee, but the current standard seems to be that you pay a chunk of money in exchange for an improved user experience for a certain amount of time, be it a few days or a week.
When it comes to casual sex with women, you likewise have a “freemium” and a “pro” version. The former is supposedly free, at least they don’t charge you for sex directly. Yet, they normally make you jump through a lot of hoops. In addition, the value proposition isn’t clear. Sure, those women dangle the option of sex in front of you, but you don’t always know what you need to do to get it because her rules may change at any moment. A supposedly easy girl who was playing with your cock in the club already may turn into a prude the moment she sees your fancy car because her eyes turn into dollar signs and she thinks that she can milk you for some serious cash. In any case, choosing the freemium version of women for casual sex means that you will spend a sometimes significant amount of time to get sex. With smartphone games, this is often by design: the user experience of the freemium version is shockingly bad, in order to encourage you to buy the pro version: Wait 12 hours to play another round of a time-wasting game or spend $9.99 to play as much as you want for one week. I’m not quite sure what the gameplan of those women is. Maybe they think that their arbitrary bullshit will increase the likelihood that you stick around to become her boyfriend. That’s the only plausible explanation I can think of.
In contrast, with the pro version, you know the price upfront. There is no bullshit because you know what you get. Sure, you may need to negotiate her services and some pros may try to scam you, but I’d say the value proposition is clear. With a pro, you pay for X and you get X. In contrast, with the freemium version, you may want X, but you do not know how much time and money it will cost you to get it and she can change her mind at any point. She may even decide to file a false rape accusation because she learned that you make $250k a year as a Software Engineer working at Google, improving online censorship algorithms, but have no interest in dating her. Given how poorly some women behave, you wonder why there aren’t more men who bang prostitutes instead. Well, you can bet that feminist lawmakers are well-aware of this problem, which is why prostitution is outlawed in some countries.
Even for guys who are very successful with women, the problem that the value proposition of regular women is unclear does not go away. The whoremongers I know make a lot more money than the average guy. They are not some ugly hermits either. Every single one of them could get laid the regular way as well, even though it would take some more effort than others. They are normally also very aware of it. Sometimes, this plays out quite wonderfully. A friend of mine told me an anecdote of a chick he met online who played hard to get. She didn’t seem to want to commit to a dinner date and he saw right through her bullshit. As he was tired of her playing games, he banged a prostitute instead. Funnily enough, the other chick sent him several messages while he was busy fucking. Then he just deleted that Tinder match. I think he should have told her that he banged a pro, but he was just fed up with her and couldn’t even be bothered to take a rise out of her.
Successful men look at the value of their time, know what they want, and pay for it. Quite frankly, when I was busy picking up women, one of the reasons I did not consider fucking pros was that I was too stingy to do so. Ironically, had I done that and just paid for it, I would probably have ended my whoring phase sooner which would have been much cheaper in the long run. Well, I still had fun and I don’t really regret it. Purely in financial terms, though, it wasn’t a good decision. As you can see, not paying for something can be much more expensive in the long run.
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Remember the tall guy from Kazakhstan that I told you? I have read very carefully the section “Her type” on seductionmyth, and I firmly believe that this guy is playing the boyfriend card. His talent of speeches and the likes only amplify the attraction that girls have for him (aka her style).
“I think it’s safe to assume that most guys would not make empty promises to a woman to get her into bed and, most importantly, not try to pump-and-dump a woman who is only interested in having a serious relationship.”
I believe that at least in East Asia, men lie much more to get into the pants of mademoiselles. The guy above lied about his family background, exaggerated his own achievement or the wealth of his family, etc.
With a society that places long-term goal for men and women relationship, the only way to sleep with a woman as fast as possible is to lie inside and outside. This may not work all the times, but it surely works for some.
One thing that I am still puzzled, is if you lie like that, won’t women become more cautious and suspicious and hold out longer to assess your so-called potentials? After all, they are not fools, for they themselves fool men just as much if not even more.
There are some cultures around the world that practise casual sex to this day. Some of them are even within prudish countries. Albeit they are smaller communities.
Thus we know casual sex can be thought of as freeing by an entire culture. Yet, us in the west seems to fear and loath Pros which is the best form of casual sex. If you think that is because of the short term nature of Pros, think again since, most Pros will likely agree to long term arrangements.
Why is that our western cultures are capable of fucking our minds to think a certain way against casual sex? What are some ways to mitigate that effect of fear of Pros?
It’s a bit strange to see a non-Westerner refer to Western culture as “theirs”. You’re not a Westerner. You have your own culture, so proudly embrace that instead as it is yours and the culture you grew up in.
The best argument for casual sex vs. pros that I know is this one:
1) “the sex is better if the girl is into you”
which is sometimes mixed up with this one:
2) “sex is better when there is an emotional connection”
I think these are two separate arguments, so lets address them.
1) This is arguably true, unless you are a sociopath. If paysex was just you fucking a woman like a dead fish with her having a disgusted look on her face, it would indeed suck.
But, in reality it is nothing like that. (unless in very rare cases)
Almost all the whores I had sex with, made an effort to please me, and also to give me the illusion that they are into me. Sometimes, they are so good at acting that it’s really hard to tell if they are into you or just faking it.
Don’t forget, pros are still women. If they like you, find you attractive (which will happen sometimes) they will react like a normal woman.
But even if they are just faking it, I would argue, does it matter?
Now here some guys go straight into metaphysics, and tell themselves that they cannot enjoy the sex if she is faking it.
I think this is bullshit. Your brain is programmed to react to fake moaning exactly the same way as to real moaning.
That is the reason women evolved the ability to fake it to begin with. If faking would not work, they would not be so good at doing it.
And by the way, how many guys are probably in relationships (some for years) and think they get their wife to orgasm, but in reality she is always faking it? I bet this happens quite a lot.
2) I think this argument is straight up feminist propaganda. Feminists want men to invest a lot of resources (this includes emotional investment) into women, so they set up this lie. And a lot of betas/cucks actually believe this, and go into LTRs with women when in reality, without the social conditioning, they would just prefer a lot of no-string-attached sex with random hot girls.
If we can infer from porn what the average man wants, it is basically meeting a hot girl, and then basically go straight to sex. No emotions here.
Even though I agree that it is feminist propaganda like you said, I don’t know how they make betas/cucks/simps believe that lie. How do you think is that they do it?
Good post! Nice breakdown.
@Sampath:
I think this cultural programming happens on a lot of levels:
– pop-music: most of the music is about love, not casual sex. Only the rappers of the black community seem to be blackpilled in this regard.
– movies: In almost all movies, even if men have casual sex, they always end up wanting some kind of LTR in the end
(e.g. in game of thrones, tyrion fucks a lot of whores, but in the end he falls in love with one of them which is his downfall)
– religion (especially christianity): marriage is the highest form of connection between men and women.
Am I right in assuming that children are impressionable and what is thought to them by Pop music, movies and religion sticks and sticks so hard that now, after years into adolescence, it feels like committing a crime to look at escorts?
To be honest, the fourth reason you gave (no money) was my reason for a long time.
It is very hard to get rid of the cultural programming. To be honest, it also took me a while. When I was 20, I still had these fantasies of love, even after I already had some pay sex.
One time I started to almost get some emotional attachments to a whore.
(I pulled the plug and never booked her again in this case)
(I have developed a policy for this, at first I never repeated the same whore to avoid this problem, but now my policy is, if I repeat a whore, to always fuck some other whores in between, I basically have a rotation of good ones)
So the programming is indeed very deep.
And I don’t want to argue here that love is not real.
The feelings of attachment we get to a woman after having sex with her, are obviously real.
It makes sense that we are wired in this way for the raising of children.
But what is not real, and what is just cultural programming, is the cultural idealization of this feeling over other feelings (like just being horny).
I have developed a heuristic for this.
Whenever I have a feeling that I want something, I ask myself:
“did this thing exist in hunter gatherer times?”
If it existed in our evolutionary past, the drive to get it is probably hard-wired and biological.
But if it is a new thing, and you want it, it is probably because of some social conditioning.
e.g. is the travel craze in the west.
I think the need to “travel, and explore the world” is mostly a result of cultural programming.
While we probably have some inborn curiosity for new things, I don’t think it is a very deep rooted desire.
But our ancestors obviously did fuck, so this drive is biological.
“One time I started to almost get some emotional attachments to a whore.”
I think this one is biological. Men aren’t stone statues, we have feelings too.
Also, the average beta cuck has a completely warped perception of casual sex. I think it’s safe to assume that sex with a pro is significantly better than sex with a random woman as the former has a strong incentive to please you. The latter may even think that it’s perfectly fine to just lie there.
“I think this cultural programming happens on a lot of levels:
– pop-music: most of the music is about love, not casual sex. Only the rappers of the black community seem to be blackpilled in this regard.
– movies: In almost all movies, even if men have casual sex, they always end up wanting some kind of LTR in the end”
Have you ever thought that sex is a particular subject to put in verses? It is very difficult to describe different flavors of sex with poems. If you know any poet who successfully wrote about sex, let me know, because I haven’t been able to find any. I wonder if Marquis de Sade or Casanova wrote poems on sex.
Love and romantic feelings, however, are immortal subject of poets.
I think sex itself is borderline vulgar and animalistic, that it is extremely difficult to describe it by poetry, or by any other means.
I have never read “fifty shades of grey” so I don’t know how it is.
Na, that doesn’t seem to be true to me.
e.g. this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xat1GVnl8-k
or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=041KaLeGZzQ
you can make art around sex as easy as around love.
the reason more art is about love is just because our cultural glorification of it.
it’s easy to imagine a society that glorifies casual sex and demonizes relationships.
Actually, it was already done for you. the book is called “Brave new World”
go and read it, if you haven’t already.
“e.g. this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xat1GVnl8-k
or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=041KaLeGZzQ
you can make art around sex as easy as around love.”
Thanks, I know the first song. However, I find these 2 songs infinitely inferior in terms of artistic achievement to the abundance of love poems and songs. Think about poems like Le Lac of Lamartine, Tristesse d’Olympio of Victor Hugo, or sonnet 18 of Shakespeare.
The thing is if you go into minute details of sex, then it sounds very coarse and unrefined.
“it’s easy to imagine a society that glorifies casual sex and demonizes relationships.
Actually, it was already done for you. the book is called “Brave new World”
go and read it, if you haven’t already.”
Yeah, I will check out that book.
I think it is a disaster if a society purely encourage uncommitted sex at the expense of relationship. If anything, it goes against the female nature. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have girls pestering a guy after going through multiple orgasms with him.
Martin, I remember this song: Love Me Harder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5qU7p7yOY8
It commands both a sexual and a romantic undertone. Artistically, it is more satisfying. But there is still “love” involved
When I listen to this song, my mind immediately think of each and every strong thrust you penetrate her in missionary position.
Oh and another major reason:
Most men are just broke and don’t make a lot of money, but obviously they don’t want to admit that.
It’s quite easy to say “I will never pay for sex!” when you don’t have any money.
That’s an astute observation. I wonder why I never made this connection, because there’s definetely a super-tight correlation there.
It’s funny how the people who say that are always guys who couldn’t afford renting a hot girl anyway. I mean, if their budget would only afford them streetwalking 4 with missing teeth… well yeah, wouldn’t pay for that lol.
“Most men are just broke and don’t make a lot of money, but obviously they don’t want to admit that.
It’s quite easy to say “I will never pay for sex!” when you don’t have any money.”
“It’s funny how the people who say that are always guys who couldn’t afford renting a hot girl anyway. I mean, if their budget would only afford them streetwalking 4 with missing teeth… well yeah, wouldn’t pay for that lol.”
Are most men (we are talking first worlders?) really that broke that they are not able to rent such a high caliber stunner at least once per year or something like that? If I would fall into this category I would at least go for it once in a life time just to get it out off my system /scratch it from my list. Just like some guys might be willing to pay some money to just once in a life time drive a Ferrari for 10 minutes or what have you. Maybe they fear they get addicted to it and it will completly fuck their already fucked finances, lol!
And even the less classy venues such a less wealthy guy might be able to visit on a (semi-)regular basis can offer better girls than streetwalking 4s with missing teeth. Banging such 6es even just every once in a while should still be better than getting married to and divorce-raped by a 5 that turns into a landwale within 5 to 10 years. So I guess these men just are not thinking things through. (I am reffering to single guys; hubbies might be afraid of getting caught.) Or they like to spend the little excess money they might have on cigarettes, booze, lame ass vacations and other nonsense.
Or am I radically underestimating how dirt poor most men really are even in the developed world or am I even completly missing the point you guys made? In this case: my bad.
Yes in theory. In fact, the average guy could afford it every 2 months without issue if they budgeted right.
The part you’re forgetting is that the average person has something like $100 in savings. People just don’t budget and save, and they spend most of their salary at start of month on impulse purchases.
He COULD have enough money to buy a high-level escort 4-5-6-7 times a year even after covering all his basic living expenses. But he doesn’t coz he spends it on bullshit.
Man, the quoted sentence from your comment above hit hard. You are smart. Thanks bro.
I never liked to travel at least for travel sake so, I understand how the western centric travel craze could be BS.
Thanks again mate.
@Sampath
Hey buddy!
You’re from Asia as well??😀
That is an excellent, dare I say “perfect” analogy. Love it.
Aaron,
On a related note, on previous discussion it has been noted that men consider a woman’s body more important than her face for sexual arousal and/or attraction. A woman can appeal to men in different ways.
What do women find arousing in men? A muscular body at 7 percent body fat. etc…?
Fat level, according to Sleazy, is not a deal-breaker. If you look imposing in shirts, than carrying around 15% of fat is still ok. That’s what I gathered after reading many of his posts.
That’s a good question. I may elaborate on this in a separate post. I’d say muscles are quite overrated. It’s height > face, ceteris paribus, and height can make up for having a somewhat average face.
“That’s a good question. I may elaborate on this in a separate post. I’d say muscles are quite overrated. It’s height > face, ceteris paribus, and height can make up for having a somewhat average face.”
I think at least in the US, it is not overated.
Height>Muscles>Facial aesthetic
Or am I radically underestimating how dirt poor most men really are even in the developed world or am I even completly missing the point you guys made? In this case: my bad.
In Germany a minimum wage worker makes 1 300 euro a month, he could easily afford a very good hooker twice a month (100-130 E) if he made that his priority. But most guys won’t do that and will rather spent their money on drinking, going out, clothes, a holiday, paying off an expansive car etc.
This is a very good point. I have to admit that I’m quite out of touch with the normie lifestyle, but it is true that consumerism reigns supreme. Plenty of people spend way above their means. I met quite a few people who, for instance, couldn’t really afford the cars they drove but, of course, they had to drive a BMW or Mercedes-Benz in order to impress other people who were equally stretched thin. It’s rather pathetic.
@Alek and hulio: Thanks. This is what I did not consider.
I always thought it to be a bit pathetic that my top spending priority (when it comes to luxury goods and hobbies etc.) is hookers. I often catch myself converting certain services, activities and goods to hooker sessions in my mind when I am about to pursue them, thinking something along the lines of “2 times this already equals a 30 min body to body massage session”, lol! In times where I want / have to make out of the ordinary, rather expansive purchases I even start panicking a bit, worried whether they might interfer with my whore mongering. However, Norman Normie most likley also has pussy in mind when he goes out to get wasted at the local pub, club or bar or when he books his vacation to Mallorca or Ibiza. (As banging chicks outside of comitted relationships is out of reach for most men, he most likley is fooling himslef in this regard.)
@Aaron: “I have to admit that I’m quite out of touch with the normie lifestyle, but it is true that consumerism reigns supreme.”
Same here, I guess. I am in no way a baller (and probably spend too much money on hookers), but even I mange to maintain a modest four-digit black number on my back account. (I think this is were my high neuroticism and my okayish orderliness come in handy.) To melt this buffer down to something like 300 Euros seems madness to me (emergencies aside). I am honestly baffled by this being the norm – even among men, apparently!