Meeting Women

Scrawny and Lean versus Buff and Fat

When editing Sleazy Stories IV, I thought of some of my club pickups. As some of you may know, I chose a very physical and aggressive approach, which worked very well for me. Quite often, my outfit was a bit risqué as well. Think of wearing a dress jacket with nothing underneath — yes, nothing! — or dancing half-naked with a light scarf wrapped around my neck. In hindsight, it struck me that my approach was almost a necessity. I am very tall with my regal 6’3″/190cm, and I am quite lean. However, when fully clothed you could not quite tell that I am a lean, mean, muscular machine. In order to score points with my physique, I basically had to walk around half-naked in clubs. Okay, that is a bit of an exaggeration.

When I briefly revisited pickup, in the wake of my first marriage dissolving, my options were a bit more limited. Not only had clubs gotten a lot less popular in the meantime, the scene I liked has also fallen by the wayside. In the few clubs available to me where such that I had to dress in a more civilized manner. Yet, my experience was that I did essentially as well as before. Granted, I did not rack up any further bathroom pulls, because the societal climat had changed. Instead, I stuck to a more mainstream-compatible game plan, i.e. pulling them for a one-night stand or even just exchanging contact details and meeting up one or two days later. I would still have preferred bathroom pulls, but due to some “doctors and engineers” from the Middle East and Africa trying to rape women in clubs, security had gotten ramped up to a ludicrous degree.

I think the big reason why I did do well with my revamped club game was simply that I had turned into a physically more imposing looking guy. It is not the case that I am overly buff, but when I am fully dressed I nowadays have a more commanding presence than before. I no longer have proper six-pack abs, but I had about ten kilos more to carry around, which were a mixture of fat and muscles. I went from around 75 kg/165 lbs. to 85 kg/187 lbs., which made a dramatic difference. (I’m currently somewhere in-between the two points described, but I want to gain a bit more weight again.)

Some guys are obsessed with their body-fat percentage. However, I consider this largely misguided. Sure, if you pick up women on the beach where you compete against other guys with chiseled abs, you will do better if you are at the same level. Otherwise, you’re better off hitting the gym and eating jumbo-sized meals. A six-pack is a pain to maintain in comparison. Assessing how well I did in my late twenties versus my late thirties, I am tempted to think that I could have done comparatively well back in the days if I had dropped the somewhat eccentric and sexually provocative Sleazy style and went for something less polarizing. I probably would have met different kinds of women, though, i.e. fewer of the very outgoing ones and more who want to at least know your name before they bend over for you. My buddy Byte, whom I mention in my Sleazy Stories books, is a good case in point. He is even taller than me at 6’5″/196cm, but I don’t think he ever had anything remotely resembling six-pack abs. He got a few crazies, but more of his pick ups were along more traditional lines. Well, in the end it’s more about what kinds of women you want to attract. In terms of success versus effort, trying to get and maintain six-pack abs is, however, arguably counter-productive.


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50 thoughts on “Scrawny and Lean versus Buff and Fat

    1. This and various iterations of this question are all really asinine. The better question is “can I pull chicks?”

      The answer is completely self-determined. Shave, get a haircut, work out, get a nice wardrobe, and actually attempt to get laid.

      Maybe you can get laid a couple times, get some data points, and see how regularly you can do it. You could also jot those points down on excel, run a t-test, and see if changing some variables between experiments gives statistically significant differences in your results.

      No matter how you do, you will answer your own question more accurately than some guy online who’s never even seen you, and has no idea who you are.

    2. Yes you can, but right now you don’t, because you lack the basics: you’re insecure, not confident, you don’t have a confident posture and probably not an attractive smile. And i bet you’re having an unlovable charisma.

      That’s all stuff, a guy can work on and has massive impact on his success, but most guys choose to focus on any limitation and like to be a victim due to circumstances.

    3. @Daniel

      You sounded exactly like a PUA.

      @Frank

      His comments are scattered about in recent threads. Try looking at “Money and Quality of Service of Escorts” first, then dig deeper into previous threads.

    4. i love how alot of guys turn out to be 1.75 here.
      funny how most of the complaints here are from average height guys like me, i would say this is direct indication that average height will limit your success.
      otherwise they wont be complaining.

  1. I think the societal climate has also changed due to the prudery. Most of the bathroom pulls and dark corner stuff happened for me, because the women like the adventure and were capable of their sexuality. We all knew there was a limited time and if it will not happen tonight, it will never happen. So all the women i had, knew what they were doing and it really seemed, they went out and hoped, to find a guy who makes things happen.

    The societal climate change I experience know, is (what i think), because most people are not capable of themselves anymore and like to feel like victims.

  2. @Pickernanny

    And you sound like a guy who hasnt got enough experience. So what’s better?

    -If a guy gets sufficiently laid, there’s no need to ask „how important is height“
    – If a guy has to choose between getting sufficiently laid or being top 20% of looks (2nd doesn’t mean to get sufficiently laid, could be) then he‘ll choose the first option.

    The thing is, Frank didn’t ask to be top 20%, he asked how important height is to pull chicks. Truth is, it’s not that important!

    @Frank: schau mal auf YouTube nach Felix Lobrecht und schau dir die Kommentare zu seinen Videos an. Der Typ ist selbst um die 1,70 und unter jedem Video liest du Kommentare wie „so süß sein Lächeln“ oder „Felix sieht so gut aus“. Daher: 1) Größe ist nicht so wichtig wie du denkst und 2) Ich bin selbst ein paar cm größer als du, viele Frauen in Clubs sind mit Heels größer als ich, trotzdem werde ich sehr oft angemacht und habe meine Erfolge (siehe Kommentar unten).

    Kuck dass du süß aussieht, dann wirst du von vielen Frauen als „Dessert“ gesehen.

    1. Don’t feed the trolls lol. This feels so 2012. That’s when we moved on from debating puas.

      It’s a longdead cult, a window into the past.

    2. No need to debate it to feed it. Trolls get off on attention. Even acknowledging its existence keeps it coming back.

    3. Just to clarify, I didn’t mean that people responding to PUAs is reminescent of 2012.

      I was saying this guy coming on here and trying to prosletize reminds me of 2012. It’s almost like seeing a time-traveller from a religion that died in the in the 15th century coming here and trying to sell it. That’s what it feels like when I see the occasional PUA come on here.

  3. What do you guys think of evolution daily. I know you guy on here hate\ game related shit but this guy actually seems genuine and a example of game existing. His infields dont look fake like the other companies

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG8X6cQ5wGw&t=1174s

    guy has wit charm and humor and converts maybe girls.
    He is average looking, high body fat. Only postive physical aspect is he white with blue eyes. It its his game doing the work or are the chicks already into him. Do he need to do all the gamey shit or is it overkill? Is his shit fake or his he possibly a fraud?

    1. Look into the legalities of releasing in-field videos. I find it amusing when people like you claim that in-field video constitutes “proof”, when the exact opposite is true.

  4. Facial aesthetics are not mentioned in this post. It is often argued that most people will look more attractive at lower bodyfat levels (10-15% for men), due to visible cheekbones and jawline. At this level one would also have visible abs.

    I think this is partially true, depending on how well these features are developed in an individual. Another factor is assortative mating, with people being attracted to someone of roughly the same degree of (relative) fatness.

    1. @Anton (aus Tirol?)

      Lower bodyfat levels (10-15% for men) are only good if you have a sturdy masculine body. You can be a scrawny bastard weighing 110lbs and have visible cheekbones, jawline and abs, but that is not attractive…. not at all!

      You know the saying: “A skinny guy with a six-pack is like a fat girl with big tits.. It doesn’t count.”

      Look at those strongmen @ television. They have pretty high body fat levels, but they’ve also have quite big and strong muscles (I suppose they need all those fat to power their huge muscles… ^^)

    2. Lower bodyfat levels (10-15% for men) are only good if you have a sturdy masculine body. You can be a scrawny bastard weighing 110lbs and have visible cheekbones, jawline and abs, but that is not attractive…. not at all!

      Except the research disagrees with you. The research is very clear that the second most-attractive-type of male body for women is the scrawny/skinny guy.

      Athletic/built guys are number 1 (low bodyfat, higher muscle), but skinny-scrawny guys are only only SLIGHTLY behind the athletic guy, and WAY AHEAD of every other type of guy.

      tl;dr = Women love the jawlined-sixpack guy with no gym muscle almost as much as the athletic version. And this dude is far far far ahead in terms of being preferred over all other body-types.

      In other words, they’re both hot hot hot guys. Let’s say one body-type is a 9 (the scrawny dude is a 9 body) and the athletic dude is a 10 body. Both are hot to women.

    3. Alek, I’m guessing that the women who go for these types the most are those still in the hookup phase of their lives and especially when they’re ovulating. I often see women settling down and marrying the big bear types of guys.

      I’ll tell you what motivated me to lift. An example: I was at a restaurant getting breakfast one morning when two little old ladies sat across from me. As I was getting ready to pay the bill and leave, one of the old ladies approached me and asked me if she could pay the bill, as to her I looked as if I was on hard times and starving to death or something. I was kind of offended but I just laughed and deflined her offer.

      I used to get tons of comments about being scrawny. The ones from land whales were probably just out of jealousy. Now that I think of it, it was always mostly females that pointed this fact out. Guys would hardly ever mention it.

    4. I think there is skinny type, where there is still some good muscle tone going on and it looks good (about where I am now). Too little muslce tone snd skinny is not attractive to many women imo. And skinny fat people who have twigs for arms and belly rolls are really bad off, but that is besides the point.

    5. It’s kind of like the extremes of each one. Like, women aren’t exactly drawn to the roided out shredded look. I was close to the extreme on the scrawny spectrum. But I get what you’re saying, Alek, and I agree with you. I just wanted to explain my personal experience to clarify the example a bit.

    6. Alek’s point, though it might seem counterintuitive, gets illustrated in hoe many girls go crazy for fragile-looking K-pop stars or scrawny punk rocker/skater types. All they need is a nice face to match.

    7. @Manuel

      Do Western women go crazy for fragile-looking Kpop stars? I find that hard to understand although I can understand why Asians do.

    8. @Alek Novy

      No, the research doesn’t necessarily disagree with me. I suppose it depends on the study / paper and there are tons of it. I have read many studies, according to which being scrawny is as unattraktive as being a land whale. (The only exception are very tall scrawny guys, e.g 1,90m and 70kg… that is somewhat of a niche)

      When I talk about “being scrawny”, I mean scrawny, as in having a BMI of 19… “Auschwitz”-Style ;=)

    9. I certainly didn’t look like an Auschwitz inmate with 74 to 76 kilos at 190cm. Slender is possibly a better word than scrawny, yet some people refer to slender people as scrawny.

    10. @Pickernanny

      I made similar experiences. I’ve been scrawny (60kg @ 1,75m) a huge part of my life and it didn’t go well with the girls (and boys)… now I weigh 72kg @ 1,75m and it’s definitely better in terms of attracting women and “general respect” and “hierarchy.”

    11. @Sleazy’s Wife: surprisingly, they do. At first I thought it was limited to teenagers, but I’ve encountered women in their 20’s and even 30’s who dig them (for the latter, still kind of a niche though).

      @Frank HH: guys in punk/emo/alternative rock bands are rich and have status, but their non-famous counterparts can do well. The parallel can’t be drawn for K-pop Idols since, well, there are hardly any non-famous counterparts in the West. Most male Asians are the nerdy type (in Latin America, there’s little Asian immigration to speak of).

    12. @Manuel S
      From what I have read in different studies, western women don’t like asian men. They are not attracted to them.

    13. Alek, I’m guessing that the women who go for these types the most are those still in the hookup phase of their lives and especially when they’re ovulating. I often see women settling down and marrying the big bear types of guys.

      Isn’t that what most of our conversations around here revolved around? In the context of getting laid? Of course women prefer different things in a provider. Dad bods make great providers lol.

    14. Too little muslce tone snd skinny is not attractive to many women imo. And skinny fat people who have twigs for arms and belly rolls are really bad off, but that is besides the point.

      A skinny fat dude isn’t a skinny dude though.

      A skinny fat guy is really a chubby guy with weird fat distribution patterns. It’s like a chubby guy who doesn’t store much fat in his arms, so he has the arms of a skinny guy. But again, that’s a chubby guy with skinny arms… not a skinny guy with a belly. Make sense?

    15. Look up “lucky blue smith shirtless” for examples of skinny bod type women go crazy for (no homo).

    16. Fragile-looking K-pop stars are rich and have high social status….

      They became rich and got the status because of their looks…

    17. When I talk about “being scrawny”, I mean scrawny, as in having a BMI of 19… “Auschwitz”-Style ;=)

      Then we’re not discussing the same subject. I too (like Aaron mentioned) have always heard people use scrawny as a synonym for slender guys… not “auschwitz looking guys” nor “skinnyfat” guys.

      I’m thinkin guys who look like the dude PickerNanny mentioned when he said google “lucky blue smith”.

      That’s natural levels of muscle tone (that guys with average testosterone) have without going to the gym. And that look is super-hot to chicks. (the look the dude mentioned above has)

    18. I attribute this to a shift in the meaning of those adjectives. Scrawny is the new slender just like swole replaced buff and in shape.

    19. @Frank_HH: perhaps the threshold for Asian-male-to-Western-female attractiveness is tougher to achieve than for other ethnicities, but that’s beyond the point. Facially attractive and slender Asian dudes check enough boxes for enough Western women to consider it a solid niche. And if what you say about the studies is true, then that’s for the most unfavoured race, and scrawny white, black, latino, arab, indian, etc. dudes would do better.

    20. I’ve have the same body type as that Lucky Blue Smith guy (my BMI is currently 19.1) and it’s never felt like an advantage with women. I don’t think it makes the best impression on women when you’re smaller than basically every other guy around and most of the women too.

    21. At 5’11”, I have never felt short when talking to a woman in real life, but when reading discussions about height and attractiveness online I start to feel like a dwarf.

    22. 5’11” is nice. You can even fib to shorter girls and squeeze in that extra an inch and they’d never know. That way they can run to their friends and have bragging rights by saying, “he’s 6’0” tall!” Lol.

      Overdrive, so are you having a lot of similar experiences as me at a bmi of around 19? Do you legitimately think that there were women who turned you down because of this, or do you just feel like it would increase your self-esteem by being noticeably muscular? Do you think that other men disrespect you because of your size?

    23. I don’t have a problem with my height. Maybe a few extra inches would help, but short and average height women see me as tall, so I can’t complain.

      As for being skinny… Well, I’ve never had a girl explicitly reject me for it, but it stands to reason that a more attractive physique would attract more women, right? I definitely notice the lack of respect from other guys though. Other guys see me as “young” even when we’re the same age and often try to tool me in front of women.

    24. @AlekNovy
      >>Then we’re not discussing the same subject.<<

      Apparently not. When I mean "scrawny", I am referring to BMI 19 guys… ;=)

      "Slender with toned body" would be BMI 22, imho, and BMI 24 – 25 is masculine build…

    25. @Overdrive

      >> definitely notice the lack of respect from other guys though. Other guys see me as “young” even when we’re the same age and often try to tool me in front of women.<<

      Exactly my experience…! I was 60kg @ 1,75m. Most men won't respect you if you are too skinny or too small. I gained some weight, now I am at 66kg. My goal is to reach 70kg and beyond… ;=)

  5. I went from around 75 kg/165 lbs. to 85 kg/187 lbs., which made a dramatic difference. (I’m currently somewhere in-between the two points described, but I want to gain a bit more weight again.)

    Can you indulge me with how did you got buff? I am 90 Kg and 183cm. At least give me a few pointers.

    1. I have a suspicion that your weight is due to excess fat as you otherwise wouldn’t ask me how to become buff. So, work on that first. To answer your question: Monitor your body fat levels, eat well, and take creatine. I found that to be a surprisingly effective supplement. Many of the really buff guys you see in the gym are on steroids, though, so make sure that your goals are realistically attainable.

    2. You are right, my excess weight is fat. Although, I don’t know how you figured that out. I am exercising 6 days a week. But to no avail as far as good looks are concerned. I think I have hit a plateau. Creatine may do the trick. Thanks and I will take note to have realistic goals.

  6. @Manuel S

    From what I have read in different studies, western women don’t like asian men. They are not attracted to them.

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