The Ultimate Post on Male Height

Back in the days I faced a lot of hostility online by PUAs and their sad gaggle of shills when I pointed out that looks do indeed matter and that height is very important for success with women. In contrast, the commercial seduction industry promoted the claim that looks do not matter. As height falls under the umbrella of looks, it therefore does not matter as well, in their twisted world view. As anyone who has eyes to see knows, looks matter a great deal for success in women. Also, height is of paramount importance to them. In this article, I cover male height in depth. As a bonus, I also mention the very few compensation techniques there are.

Height matters a lot. The standard counter argument used to be that “game” is more important than looks, height included, because some tall, well-built guy could be awkward and therefore repel women, while some extremely well-versed PUA who knows to approach women from a 37.5 degree angle, and with the perfect opener, would get the girl any time. If that was the case, then I would not have seen so many PUAs strike out more or less all the time. There was nothing to them. Of course, it is the case that a guy with excellent genetics can talk himself out of getting laid or simply weird them out by acting in a strange way. I refer to this as “anti-game”. While “game” is nonsense and does not get you laid, “anti-game” is real and means that due to your own incompetence you can certainly ensure that you will mess up one chance after another to get laid. Every guy I know who got from a position of very little success with women to slaying them left, right, and center belonged to that category. Once they stopped doing stupid things, they had one woman after another hop on their cock.

When you want to make an honest assessment whether something, anything, is good or bad, you are well-advised to look at that particular aspect in isolation as opposed to dreaming up some additional conditions. I claim that it is generally better to have more money than less. Sure, you can now say that drowning in money would be crappy because you’d have all those shady investment managers harass you, and what about all those gold diggers who want to trap you with a baby? Just as you can have too much money in the mind of the morons who make such a claim, you can probably also have sex with too many women who are too beautiful. Heck, it may make you elitist because you can no longer relate to Billy Beta-Bucks who has never fucked a woman who didn’t look like a dog. Similarly, people may tell you that the ideal height is not 6′ or 6’3″, but rather a much shorter height like 5’6″. Those deluded guys come up with all kinds of reasons. Among my favorites is that a shorter guy would be more attractive to women because he would not be that much taller than she is. Other arguments centered around physique, pointing out that a shorter guy will look more muscular than a similarly fit taller guy because the former has a more compact build. Well, it is true that it’s more difficult for a tall guy to get buff, but that does not mean that the tall guy somehow no longer isn’t tall. I even read guys proclaim that women don’t really care about height anyway, so any height is the best height. Just think about how ridiculous this sound if you rephrase it: any x is the best x!

The fact that there are guys who want to tell you that height does not matter should already make you suspicious. It’s such an obviously false statement. Every short guy is well-aware of his physical shortcomings. They only have to go to a club or any place where there is a crowd of people and try to walk through the crowd. For them, this can be genuinely difficult undertaking because taller people hardly notice them. In contrast, if a tall guy walks through a crowd, people sometimes move away even subconsciously. By that I mean that people move out of your way even though they have their back turned to you. That’s because they notice your towering presence. There is a world of difference in how people, not just women, react to a tall guy versus a short one. If you think this sounds like total bullshit, then look at the following pictures. The first one is a bit light-hearted. It is taken from the anime adoption of Mad Bull 34, a manga by Kazuo Koike and Noriyoshi Inoue .

The PUA on the left believes that the Chad on the right does not get laid as he does not know “game”

The guy on the right is the titular “Mad Bull”, the puny guy on the left is his new partner. If you were a woman who only existed in an anime, which one would you fuck? Now you may think that this contrast between some puny dude and this hulk of a man is surely exaggerated, but let’s look at two real life examples of obvious height differences to illustrate that this is at best an exaggeration of a real-life phenomenon. The first is a picture of Geert Wilders (6’5″) together with Tommy Robinson (5’7″), with a picture Winston Churchill right between them in the background.

You can bet that Tommy Robinson felt small at this moment, and not just because of Wilders’ political stature

Doesn’t Geert Wilders make Tommy Robinson look rather tiny in comparison? Oh, in that context, I read that Tommy Robinson being short is a supposed benefit as it makes him less vulnerable to political assassinations. That would be an amusing justification to add to the arsenal of height denialists. Below is another picture, showing Candace Owens right between Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk. I don’t think the latter has a particularly attractive face, but his height is certainly imposing.

If you were Candace Owens, whom of those two men would you find more attractive?

Ben Shapiro (5’6″) looks like a kid in comparison. Quite frankly, a visiting zoologist from outer space may conclude that he belongs to a whole different species than Charlie Kirk, due to the height difference. I could not find reliable information on Charlie Kirk’s height, but it is clear that he is a lot taller than that puny little manlet Ben Shapiro. Candace Owens’ height is claimed to be 5’4″ (not in heels), but I also found statements online according to which she never released information about her height, so let’s take it with a grain of salt. However, if she’s 5’4″, then the picture above also nicely illustrates the effect of high heels.

Now, imagine you’re a a woman and you want a man. Would you feel more protected by Ben Shapiro, who looks as if he couldn’t even intimidate a cat, or the hulk Charlie Kirk? Who of those two do you think would get Candace Owens more aroused? Can you even imagine Ben Shapiro trying to pick up a woman at a bar? I think the answers are pretty obvious. You can bet that if Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk walked into a bar together, the former would be essentially invisible. Charlie Kirk would have women giggling at anything he says. Girls would attest that he is “so funny”, while they would only notice Ben Shapiro if they were looking for some loser to buy them drinks.

There is probably a point at which you are too tall for your own good. I think if you’re 6’5″ and above, your height can become an issue. A problem for some tall guys is that they have poor posture, but that can be fixed fairly easily. Yet, if you are used to bumping your head on door frames, it may be a bit more difficult for you to learn how to walk upright. On the other hand, if you’re very tall, you may also have some rather enticing opportunities. This may sound flippant to some, but if you’re a very tall teenager, I’d certainly look into pursuing a sport where your height is a big benefit, like rowing or basketball. At 6’5″ you’re in the top fraction of a percent in terms of height. You may not make it to the NBA but maybe you can get an athletic scholarship for college or play sports semi-professionally. From a friend who studied at the University of Cambridge, I learned that if you’re a stellar rower, it’s significantly easier to get admitted because Cambridge and Oxford have their yearly boat race on the Thames, which is a very competitive event. They don’t want a team of some scrawny IQ-150 math nerds defend the honor of those universities, so a small number of buff athletes get a leg up. This is not part of the official policy but, to quote my friend, you’d only have to talk to one of the star rowers to realize that they weren’t admitted based on the academic strength of their application.

One of the more interesting people I met in recent years, a 6’6″ tall white guy, played basketball professionally in Europe for a few years. He completed his degree on time, played sports full-time for two or three years and banged a ton of women, which was only made easier because he traveled around for his job. He didn’t necessarily get them due to name recognition, which he didn’t have, but he said that he only had to go out with two or three of his team mates. Chicks would just come with them. Now he works in a STEM job and holds a leadership position. I don’t have the impression that this excursion hurt his career in any way. If anything, it made him a much more interesting candidate.

The other big issue very all guys have is that they can easily look lanky. I coached a few such guys. My default recommendation is weight training and eating. With 15% body fat and somewhat defined arms, those guys can easily look like a tank. If in doubt, you’re probably better off being tall and a bit on the fat side instead of being toned. My buddy Byte, for instance, is 6’5″. In his seducer heydays he was around 250 pounds. He made me look puny in comparison. If you saw a picture of him, you’d claim that his physique is lacking and that he would need to hit the gym to get rid of his excess baggage (he eventually did slim down). Yet, when he entered a place, there were always girls who immediately gravitated towards him. It was as if he exerted gravitational pull on them. I am also familiar with that kind of reaction, but I am not at his level in that regard.

The most interesting observation about height is when you notice how it automatically gets you attention when people suddenly realize how tall you really are. To give you an example, imagine you’re in a meeting. You sit down. Some woman comes in late and sits down at the table. From her behavior during the meeting, you can tell that she does not like you very much. Many women have their lovely ways of letting you know, even in a professional context. Anyway, the meeting is over and you get up. As you do so, she realizes how tall you are — and she’s staring at you with her mouth and eyes wide open. Maybe this happens to me more often because my face is not conventionally attractive. Something similar may happen in the gym. Let’s say I sit down to rest, and as I get up, suddenly some thot stares at me. Sometimes, thots even turn around to get another look. It’s even funnier when you notice such behavior as an observer. When I visited my buddy Byte a few weeks ago, he stopped some woman in her tracks by just getting up at a restaurant. He got up from his chair and this chick who was a few feet behind him seemingly completely forgot what she wanted to do and just looked at him. She just stood there, watching him head to the restroom until she got back to her senses.

The shorter guys among you may now read this and boil. Maybe it seems arbitrary that women are so into height. Maybe you keep telling yourself that some short guy got this tall super-model girlfriend and the fact that he’s a billionaire or actor is completely irrelevant for it. You may even fantasize that there is a little bit of Tom Cruise in you, even though you don’t have a net worth of hundreds of millions of dollars. Maybe you tell yourself that every rich and famous short guy would have gotten his hot girlfriend with “game” just the same. But let’s be honest here. Height is an indicator for genetic fitness. It furthermore indicates that your parents were able to feed you well for years, so you’re probably not poor. Height and intelligence are likewise correlated, because taller guys have bigger heads, bigger heads contain bigger brains, and bigger brains are smarter brains, just like bigger muscles are stronger muscles. All of this is just reality. There is no point in getting upset about it or fantasizing about shady leg-lengthening operations that have nasty side effects, like sending you straight into a wheelchair in your 50s.

If you are not particularly tall, there is not so much you can do, but all is not lost. If your posture is bad, I would work on that as this will dramatically improve your appearance. Don’t hunch! You can also take a leaf out of the Big Female Book of Deception. Start wearing leather shoes instead of sneakers as the former tend to have a heel that boosts your height by 1.5 inches or so. On top, get inlays to add another inch. In particular if you are a little below 6′, this will help you a lot. On a related note, some of you may try their luck online and get frustrated because all the women ignore you due to your stated height. Well, do what a lot (most?) women do and state your height with those artificial boosters. The number of women who believe that their height in high heels is their natural height is rather substantial. Lastly, you can make use of another female habit: lie! The difference between a woman in real life and her representation online is often staggering. So, to even the playing field a little bit, bump yourself up from 5’8″ or 5’9″ to 6′! She’s likely at least ten pounds heaver than in her pictures, so what right would she have to complain? It’s not your fault that so few women are dishonest. Your behavior is thus only par for the course. If you are tall, you don’t really need to resort to such measures, but in that case, be thankful for your genetic heritage.

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44 thoughts on “The Ultimate Post on Male Height

  1. I am a tall guy. I play basketball, lift weights and am pretty athletic. 235lbs at around 6’4 or 6’5

    I have never really noticed my height being any sort of advantage. I don’t think I have any sort of social retardation. Not autistic, just slightly introverted.
    My posture is not great. I have slight apt and slightly rounded shoulders. But nothing major.
    I don’t have a handsome face. Some women have said I have a baby face. Some have said it’s attractive.

    Overall I’d say I’m slightly above average in everything except height.
    I have to work really hard if I want to get laid and don’t notice any sort of gravity pull towards me that you describe. Mostly I notice women just ignoring me.

    1. Bad posture can easily wreck your chances, so you should definitely work on that. The difference between bad and good (or great) posture is quite dramatic, for both men and women.

    2. >It was as if he exerted gravitational pull on them. I am also familiar with that kind of reaction, but I am not at his level in that regard.<

      Holy shit Aaron. I guess this finally explains why I notice women(including cute and actually attractive ones)seem to be drawn to me. Even though I'm definitely on the flabby side. I'm not particularly all that tall in hindsight,but I live in a country where 5'9 ft is considered tall. (Well,that and apparently I have a conventionally attractive face.)

      I'm working on that now however,via dieting and weight training. I guess Endomorphs generally have it easier than Ectomorphs(of similar height and facial attractiveness that is)on the dating scene.

    1. Dude,

      Many of us have been there. Judging from your posts here you seem to have gotten into an emotional funk, which is fine. It’s normal to be angry after you’ve realized you’ve been misled and lied to. It’s also normal to be pissed off when you realize that women are privileged all the while playing the victim. I’ve been there and many others here have been there too. In fact, I’m still kinda pissed about it, but much less.

      What I wanna say is that for your own good you should try to make sure that this is a phase that you go through rather than a place that you get stuck permanently for life. Otherwise you could develop very serious health issues, both mental/emotional and physical. Despite all the B.S. in the world, it’s possible to build a decent dating life (or escorts) for yourself and reasonably happy existence in general.

      Only you can figure out how to get yourself there though. Everyone of us here has his own path.

    2. Also you might benefit from taking some time off from all the red pill content, so you can process all of your newfound perspectives, process all the emotions associated with it, and integrate all this info/emotion into your life bit by bit.

      For me, it was helpful to do exactly that. After you’ve gone

      Otherwise you can get “addicted” to the anger and the resentment and as I said before – that’s not good for you!

    3. Sweet blue pill.

      I’m a 28 years old 5’4 feminine soft looking passive autistic boy but deep down I know that no matter what kind of pill I take getting laid is just a dream.

      I can literally dry vaginas just by existing and opening my mouth. I wish I could make money from drying vaginas because this is my god given skill.
      PUA or red pill has nothing to do with anything.
      Self improvement only works for yourself, sure you can meditate and reach nirvana but that still would not allow you to get laid.

  2. Good post. I agree with all of it. I am a short guy (5’5″). The solution is to go to short countries — preferably countries where your other attributes are in demand (blonde hair for instance). I have never met anyone whose stock goes up as much as mine from leaving the US and going overseas. I first noticed it many years ago. It was crazy the response I got from women. The respect. The interest. Then I’d go back to the US and be invisible again. So eventually I just started spending more and more time outside the country.

    This is a function of moving beyond societal monogamy into serial polygamy as the norm. A short guy is simply never going to get real quality — maybe once or twice in his life and even then maybe not. That is because the in-demand male specimens will just keep rotating their women.

  3. If you are short, you’ll need to hit the gym. Gett buff, get strong, get some nice clothes….

    you need to compensate.

    I am 5″9′ and I live in Hamburg. Median is 6″1′, so I am pretty much in a disadvantage O_o

    They need so start experimenting with stem cell leg growing techniques… :=D

  4. 5’9″ here. I wear “normal” shoes (i.e. not special lifts or anything ) that probably give another inch of height.
    If you’re good looking and fit, have a decent job, confident etc. etc. (and not a low self esteem incel wacko’ who’s filled with rage an bitterness about not being 6’4″), there should be plenty of options. The main thing is you’ll have better results with women you’re taller than. I usually don’t bother “approaching” taller woman b/c I figure they won’t be interested. That is also stupid b/c you never know. Experience has proven otherwise (sometimes) and also friends and acquaintances dating taller women. Will a “hot” taller guy have more women to choose from? I think so. But regardless, it’s best to just make the most of what you have. Most people don’t do that and would rather just complain, be lazy, and so on.

    1. Tall women can be more open to dating shorter (than them) guys than you would expect. They got a lot less approaches because of their height and a lot of tall guys prefer short women. Obviously, the bigger the height gap, the more sceptical they will be, but I dated a girl 2 inches taller than me and height wasn’t an issue at all.

    2. @Overdrive

      I agree. Most of my girl-dates were tall(er) women and they’ve always seemed to be more tolerant when it comes to height. The biggest heightist-bitches are the small ones.

    3. If i didn’t insist on having a short-girl fetish, i could have banged probably 10x more girls during my lifetime.

      I get hit on by tall girls left and right and I’ve found laying them to be 100x easier than a short girl. I doubt there’s anything about me in particular that makes me appealing to tall girls. I spent most of my effort trying to bang short girls, but still I think at least 50% of my lays were tall chicks… whom i didn’t even try to get laid with. They do most of the work. And when a chick is super-duper-hot otherwise (like a tall version of my ideal 10), i’m like “ok ok, we’ll do it”.

    4. i have short petite women fetish too problem is, i also found chicks 1.68 cm tall more into me then 1.55 lol.
      i am 1.77 btw.
      even so i see taller guys tend to be with taller women overall.

    5. i have short petite women fetish too problem is, i also found chicks 1.68 cm tall more into me then 1.55 lol.

      Pretty much story of my life. I spend all my time getting rejected by the 1.55 chicks while I reject the 1.70 chicks who are into me.

    6. When you guys started talking about tall women being more receptive, I figured you meant in 180 cm+ range, but 170 cm? Damn. I honestly don’t mind banging taller chicks at all, maybe I should start singling them out.

      I assume by short girl fetish you’re talking a top out of around 158 cm?

    7. When you guys started talking about tall women being more receptive, I figured you meant in 180 cm+ range, but 170 cm? Damn. I honestly don’t mind banging taller chicks at all, maybe I should start singling them out.

      Yes, the taller, the more receptive.

      – The 180+cm chicks are 10x more receptive than the 170cm chicks
      – And the 170-175cm chicks are 10x more receptive than the 150-155cm chicks

      For me laying a 180cm+ chick is a matter of of standing back and letting her fuck me. They’re pretty agressive, almost like a horny/thirsty guy.

    8. I assume by short girl fetish you’re talking a top out of around 158 cm?

      – 160cm is average… 158 is almost average
      – 165 is a bit taller than average
      – 170-175cm is a tall chick
      – 180+ chick is the equivalent of a 220cm guy … i.e. super-tall

    9. Alek, the average guy is about 15cm taller than the average girl. So a 180cm tall chick is roughly equivalent to a 195cm tall guy (assuming similar standard deviation in the height distributions), not 220cm. So very tall, but not a giantess.

    10. Alek, the average guy is about 15cm taller than the average girl. So a 180cm tall chick is roughly equivalent to a 195cm tall guy (assuming similar standard deviation in the height distributions), not 220cm. So very tall, but not a giantess.

      Read what you wrote again, then think 🙂 It’s about proportionality you retard.

    11. If you want a clarification. I wrote “equivalent to”. In terms of the sexual market and how she’s perceived. Not as in mathematical/statistical bracket equivalent.

      What’s this obsession with “but but, the exact mathematical equivalent is”. Conversation is about context. Sometimes you “but, but” guys make me never even want to comment on here again. There’s always one of you who nitpicks shit to a uber-geeky autistic level like this.

    12. It’s about proportionality you retard.

      I will apologize for the insult though. I do hate this nitpicky shit.

      I come here to blow-off steam after/in the middle busting my brain 15-17 hours a day doing hyper-analytical shit. I vomit out a comment without proofreading. And there’s always someone to act like i’m submitting a paper to a peer-reviewed journal.

      There were even 5 assholes who informed me that it was my duty to insert every possible clarification and footnote and disclaimer if i was going to breach a subject, in case someone hasn’t been reading this blog before.

      That’s what paid consultations with Aaron are for. I’m going going to do this shit for free. This is comments-section is procrastination/blowing off steam for me.

    13. Lol anyways, this does put things in perspective, I think.

      I meet a lot of chicks at work, but typically don’t try to bang them. I don’t really worry about false rape claims and shit like that too much where I’m from. But I’m starting to think that maybe I should be instead befriend some of these chicks and sleep with their tall buddies etc.

    14. I’m sorry Alek, when you were saying what female height is equivalent to what male height I just assumed you meant in terms of rareness or how far away from the mean. It didn’t occur to me that you meant in terms of perception of attractiveness rather than the statistical distribution of heights. It wasn’t clear in your post because you were talking about what is average and what is tall, although obviously it makes sense in the context of the wider discussion.

      I may also have not realised because a 220cm male is so freakishly tall he would face significant penalties on the dating market. I don’t think many people would see that height as attractive.

      It didn’t even occur to me to think of a 180cm girl the same way because I was unsure if people perceive their height as unattractive. I know they get less approaches but I thought that was because guys assume they want taller men. I actually find 180cm chicks hotter than average height or short chicks. I may be in a minority on that one.

    15. If you want to pursue a more quantitative angle to this question, you can’t just look at the averages. Instead, you need the standard deviation as well. That being said, I’d say that a woman who is 6′ and above is freakishly tall. A guy who is 6’5″ does not evoke that kind of reaction.

  5. I’m 191 cm and wear blundstones to make me 1 inch or so taller. They are also nice, rugged looking shoes and recommend them to any short guys. Good luck, life isn’t fair at times. Count your blessings because it can always be worse.

  6. Between all the legit guys who weren’t all that tall (teevster, 60 years of challenge, the letter), what did they do they made them stand out?

    1. Especially interested in your thoughts on TheLetter as l recall he was a short chubby asian guy?

    2. TheLetter is short but probably not quite as chubby as you think, at least not these days. He is not a “slayer” and never claimed he was. However, he is punching above his weight for two reasons. First, he targets a particular subculture and, second, his personal circumstances are very good as he is able to leverage his high IQ for financial success.

    3. Teevster is the tallest of those three. When I met him, he was only 16 or 17, so he may well have grown a few more inches. Still, even then he was of about average height. He has a pretty attractive face, which helps a lot, in addition to him being very outgoing and very skilled at seduction.

      TheLetter is punching above his weight because he’s targeting a niche. He also has been enjoying significant financial success.

      Sixty is a different story. When I met him in real life, I was surprised how short he is. I can’t assess his qualities as a seducer. In clubs and bars he certainly would have a pretty hard time.

  7. I’m a 5’4″ guy. I agree that being short is a big disadvantage and that it’s important not to lie to yourself about that, but I also don’t think that it’s as impossible as many people make it out to be for a short guy to be successful. In fact I know this because I did alright. Maybe not as well as most taller guys of course but better than the average guy.

  8. Aaron, have you noticed differences in reactions to your height between short and tall girls? As a tall guy I would be interested in reading a post on this subject.

    1. Short girls like me because I’m so tall, and tall girls like me for the very same reason. However, one difference is that taller girls somehow seem to think they are entitled to a taller guy. Thus, I’ve met quite a few rather obnoxious tall women. It could well be that they were simply more aggressive because they needed to be, considering that they are disadvantaged on the dating market.

  9. I am a short guy- 5’6″. Yes being tall is an obvious advantage when it comes to getting women. But I am not bothered by this fact since women find me attractive anyway. As to why, well thats another story altogether. And no its not due to “game” lol

    1. Isn’t that obvious? You most certainly don’t doubt that you are stronger when your muscles are bigger. I think there is some confusion because short bodybuilders seem to be able to lift heavier weights than taller ones. Yet, this is due to them having shorter arms and legs (cf. displacement in basic physics).

    2. Both brain size and height are correlated with intelligence but the correlation is so weak that it doesn’t have much practical significance despite being statistically significant (which basically means non-zero).

    3. In the aggregate, supposedly minor correlations can make a big difference. Also, a few IQ points amount to a big difference as well. I’d argue this is more relevant for average IQs. It is also affirmed by job recommendation tables that use a step size of 5 IQ points between 90 and 110 and the top category is 120+. That is not to say that IQ differences don’t matter at the high end. Yet, you can’t even reliably determine very high IQs as you are dealing with outliers. In other words, you can expect two people with an IQ of above 130 to do excellent work, and conscientiousness may certainly be the deciding factor in determining who is more successful in the long run as there are very few areas where a sky-high IQ is necessary. On the other hand, someone with an IQ of 90 can’t make up for that with conscientiousness, i.e. “hard work”.

    4. It appears to me that your reasoning contains implicit assumption that a small correlation means that all tall people gain a little bit of extra IQ points hence the argumentation concerning whether 5 points of IQ is significant or not. That would be a deterministic model of intelligence and all intelligence research is probabilistic.

      What I meant by saying that correlation isn’t significant in practice is that if you had to guess whether candidate A was smarter than candidate B based purely on their height difference then you wouldn’t be much more accurate than random guessing.

      But as you say, in the aggregate, supposedly minor correlations can make a big difference. That is why correlation of 0.2-0.3 isn’t so useless if you had to guess whether group of tall people have higher average IQ compared to group of short people. The larger the sample, the more accurate predictions will be despite the small correlation. However, in practical, everyday, individual case such correlation is useless.

    5. Sure, we can all talk about looking at the individual. However, this negates the fact that certain traits are observable in large populations, which negates that each individual is somehow special. For instance, there is surely a correlation between having high levels of consumer debts and defaulting on one’s mortgage. In this example, would you seriously claim that we should ignore such a correlation because we may have found the one person whose past financial behavior will not explain future financial behavior? A correlation of 0.2 to 0.3 is pretty good, by the way. If you could pick winners in the stock market like that, you’d be making truckloads of money.

    6. ” If you could pick winners in the stock market”

      Good thing about the financial market is that you don’t need causality to make money.
      Cutting down ice cream sales to reduce drownings, just because both ice cream sales and drownings are correlated seems like a shitty idea, because there is no causality.
      Buying the SPX on a sunny morning in New York will make money though*. Go find the causality there lol.

      *only before fees, though

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