Meeting Women · Men

How to figure out whether you’re buff enough for successfully picking up girls

I used to stress the importance of style. It is of course not unimportant, but a much bigger determinant of your success with women is your physique. Thus, if you walk around in a plain T-shirt and your female acquaintances remark that you surely work out, you’re fine. From that point onward, adding more muscle or losing a bit more body fat is a pointless micro-optimization.

Don’t get me wrong, in general it is good to be in shape and to not carry too much fat around. You may want to look at yourself in the mirror and marvel at your six-pack. However, if you’re not competing, either on the bodybuilding stage or with your homoerotic bros in the gym, this doesn’t really matter. A caveat is that this does not necessarily apply if you live in a warmer country and pick up chicks on the beach. In that case, going from a blurry four-pack to a six-pack may be worth the effort if you are competing with a lot of guys with six packs. Otherwise, don’t bother.

Some insecure bros may now chime in that this is a bunch of nonsense, but think about it: When you’re dressed and you’ll look pretty buff, then her decision to fuck you won’t change the moment you take off your shirt. It just won’t happen that you undress, spread her legs, but upon entering, she tells her that she can’t let you bone her because you don’t have a six-pack.

So far, I have only been referring to “natural bodybuilding”. Hit the gym for two years, and you’ll gain a significant amount of muscle. Taking steroids to grow even bigger seems unnecessary, if you’re not part of that subculture. You guys should look up pictures of Schwarzenegger in his prime, but fully dressed. Look at this:

Of course he wouldn’t have gotten that gig had he not been Schwarzenegger, but guys with much more body fat and less muscle would have looked the same. In that shot, if you did not know that it was Schwarzenegger, you would not have concluded that it shows a first-rate bodybuilder in disguise.

In true “Minimal Game” manner, the bottom line is that you shouldn’t optimize your workout routines based on how you look naked, but how you look like with your clothes on. If you look good when you’re dressed, you’re buff enough for picking up girls. You’re probably at 95 %, if not more, of your potential at that point.

60 thoughts on “How to figure out whether you’re buff enough for successfully picking up girls

  1. “. You guys should look up pictures of Schwarzenegger in his prime, but fully dressed. Look at this:”
    This movie was released in 1988, Arnold won his last Mr. O in 1980 and focussed on his acting career. So not in his prime and likely off the juice.

    Otherwise I obviously agree with the sentiment. If you focus too much on bodybuilding you will look more at the other dudes at the beach than all the women and that would be missing the target you were aiming for in the first place, getting laid.

    1. Schwarzenegger was really buff in the first two Terminator movies, which were released in 1986 and 1992, respectively, if I recall correctly.

  2. “Taking steroids to grow even bigger seems unnecessary, if you’re not part of that subculture.”

    If this study is to be believed, very few women find bodybuilders attractive and that the gold standard seems to be Brad Pitt from the movie Fight Club.
    Only 1% of the women in this study found Frank Zane’s body attractive and 72.5% found Brad Pitt’s body attractive.

  3. The massively built bodybuilder types only appeal to a relatively small segment of the female population, so it is a bit funny that it gets emphasized in a lot of the fluff fitness magazines. I often end up in gyms with these guys and while they have accomplished some impressive bodybuilding, it seems to have little or no utility. It is great to not be fat, it is good to have a muscular frame, but who really uses 36 inch biceps?

  4. i’m sorry but in my experience your statement is only half treu. the extra work on the six pack won’t help you in a bar or a club with all strangers. it will help you a lot if you visit the same place more then once and in your social circles. women talk about their sexual partners with their friends. often they tell every detail. if they like it there is a really good chance one off their friends wants to make a ride. and sometimes they will propose a three-way. in my experience the six pack is the most popular with women. and training your six pack isn’t that hard if you do the techniques right. (most people do it rong) so it might be worth the extra 5 min a day. if your arms are too big it can turn off some girls but a six pack is always a welcome plus with all women. so if you work out to attract women i would start with perfecting the six pack. (i would advice working out for yourself)

  5. Christoffer i think Brad Pitt is mostly the hype. if you show women a pile of shit and tell them it’s from Brad Pitt. they will say that it’s the most beautiful pile of shit they have ever seen.

    1. I have 2 points to make on that one.

      1. It was more to show that bodybuilders are not as attractive to women as the magazines wants you to believe. So if anyone is thinking of taking steroids to attract women, you are wasting your time, money and health.

      2. The women did not see the faces of the bodies they picked. The also said that Ryan Reynolds was their ideal celebrity body (and after Deadpool, can you blame them) and he didn’t do so well. I also think it can’t be explained by “Brad Pitt hype” since his body was from an 17 year old movie and they didn’t see his face.

  6. if you want to know the perfect bodytype. best to look at male models. you’ll see a six pack but not over done. same with the arms. they look trained and fit but not really buffed. if you really go for max terminator style most women wouldn’t like it.

  7. i do martial arts. we have a combo training program. 50/50 strength vs cardio this will give the results you want. it keeps you strong enough to do some damage and fast/flexible enough to hit and evade. women like this body type because it’s the best for hunting. the most buffed are to slow and sluggish to be effective. it’s women’s nature to look for the best hunter.

  8. I have something quick to add, because I’m seeing some “wrong information”. I have a ton to add, but this is the quickie one.

    There’s this discussion about the ideal being “brad pitt fight club physique”. That doesn’t take into account type of woman. As I remember there were studies that correlated it with:

    – the girl’s looks
    – her educational level
    – her goals

    When women are looking for one-night-stands and casual sex, that physique IS more muscular than that when looking for a provider.

    The brad pitt fight club physique is for a BOYFRIEND (not a fuckbuddy). I think they even included reasons like (if he’s too buff he’ll cheat on me)… etc

    Hotter girls preffered buffer guys (for the same reason). Less attractive women are intimidated by buffer guys.

    Another factor: More educated women prefer less muscle, less brainy girls prefer more.

    Practical translation “hot dumb sluts like more muscle”, “intellectual unattractive nerd girls looking for a boyfriend prefer no muscle”

    The good news is this doesn’t mean you need go on steroids to gets lots of casual sex with dumb sluts. Very few women (even dumb sluts) liked the steroid look. If the categories were…

    A) No muscle
    B) Brad Pitt fight club physique
    C) Big natural (i.e. 90% of what’s possible to get naturally)
    D) Above natural muscle

    Most women’s preferences on the planet fall on B, C or somewhere between. With sluttier chicks nearer to C, and boyfriend looking homely girls more towards B.

    1. C would actually be at “100 of what’s possible naturally.

      I put in 90% as a reminder that this is where diminishing returns kick in with training.

      You can get the first 80-90% of your maximum in just 2-3 years of good training. And then you need 10-15 years for the other 10-20%.

      100% of natural maximum is of no additional benefit (over 80-90%) even for hot dumb sluts looking for casual sex. Some might even prefer 80%.

    2. Better written summary:

      Most women on this planet have a preference (for a male body) that lies between:

      B) A guy who has developed 20% of the maximum possible natural muscle mass

      C) A guy that has the maximum possible amount of natural muscle

      With casual-sex-seeking chicks more toward C. Lower status and dumber chicks also lean toward C.

      Less attractive (and-or) provider-seeking females lean more toward B.

    3. We’ve talked about this repeatedly before. He runs a successful business (= money) and isn’t nearly as ugly as you seem to think.

    4. xaxsparrior you don’t have to be brad pit type to hook up with a 10. but it makes it a lot more easy. there are more factors in play. charisma, economic status, social status, assertiveness. being in good shape and attractive will increase your chances. it’s about your total value to her. a sum of all your qualities vs the value that she believes she’s worth. if you don’t have the looks then you have to compensate for that in some other field that she values. game can be used to compensate. but it will only take you so far.

    5. How do you then explain the success of guys like this?

      “The success”? To me they’re within 2 points off each other in terms of looks, which is normal deviance.

      Further note two major things. There’s a HUGE DIFFERENCE between:

      A) What a guy can get once vs what he get regularly (i.e. the best girl you can get once per decade isn’t indicative of what you can get regularly)

      B) What a guy can get for an LTR vs what he can get for casual dating. Girls lower their looks standards when picking a provider. He might even go for months without sex, but she’ll take pics with her provider if he’s good at providing.

      There are multiple factors that determine which kind of girls you can get on a regular basis

      – If you get into to the top 5% of ability to read signals, know when and what move to make (minimal game) you can regularly get girls who are within 2 points difference from you, this is normal variance just because of the numbers game, being the easy choice when she’s horny etc etc… (keeping her is another matter altogether)

      – If you get into to the top 5% physique and style, you can regularly get girls who are within 2 points difference (from where you were without the physique), because you do actually get a 2 points upgrade.

      – If you get into the top 5% of status, you can regularly get girls who are 2 points difference. Get into top 1% status in a context that matters to the girl, even 3-4 points difference is possible.

      People often claim they know someone who gets girls way hotter than him despite having none of these factors, but it always turns out to be a manipulation.

      – Perhaps he does regularly get laid (banging 2-3 new average girls a month by shotgunning)… and he only gets a drunk eight maybe 3 times a year. The story gets retold as “He gets 2-3 new eights every month”.

      – Perhaps the story is purposefully omitting a factor such as “All the girls he bangs are patrons to a club where he’s the main promoter”.

      etc etc…

    6. xaxsparrior game is more like make-up for dude’s. women use make-up to make you believe that their sexual market value is higher then it really is. men use game. but both have limitations.

    7. basically it works a bit like this.
      genetic lottery score will be your base value. lets say it’s 6
      you work out but you’re not fightclub fit +1
      you have a stable income but no savings. score 0
      you dress badly -1
      you have a little game +1
      all other qualities are stable score 0 (car, house, popularity etc)
      total score: 7
      you can forget hooking up with a 10.
      you can practice your game more +1
      but you cant make the jump to a value 10.
      you can only win/lose 1 or 2 points with game.
      extremely bad -2, just bad -1, normal 0, good +1, extremely good +2
      if you want to take the 10 home you need more then just game.
      win the 30mil lottery +4
      get celebrity status +4
      work out more +1
      dress better +1
      buy a ferrari +3

    8. it’s about your total score from her viewpoint. a spoiled rich girl will not be impressed with a expensive car like a middle-class girl would. a woman that brings home 100k with her job would not be impressed by a guy that brings home 100k like a girl working at the supermarket would be. a girl living in hollywood wouldn’t be impressed by a well dressed man like a girl living in a suburban medium income area would be. a girl that grows up in a remote sheltered community where most men have no game at all would be a much easer target for a pick up artist then a city girl that already heard every pick up line a 1000 times.

    9. that’s wy you shouldn’t use pick up lines when approaching a 10. no matter how original you think your pick up line is she has heard it a 1000 times already. she gets 30 pick up lines a day if not more. that’s wy girls like that have a bitch shield. i had a long-term relationship with a 10 and we had a protocol for dealing with guys like the pua’s. it’s just standard procedure to blow off guys like that. they hate it when guys try pick up on them. because they have to deal with it every day. the typical pick up only works on girls with a score 8 or lower. above 8 you need a different approach and something more to offer then cheap talk.

    10. He might even go for months without sex, but she’ll take pics with her provider if he’s good at providing.

      I.e she will proudly show off her provider if he’s good at providing, though she might not even be having sex with him much. He might be doing a ton of providing for rationed sex once every 2 weeks.

    11. it’s also the reason the really hot girls go for the more buffed guys and bad boy’s. they feel a stronger need for protection. blowing off guys can be a full-time job for a 10. having a buffed boyfriend makes her feel more save. dont think you can have a 10 for a girlfriend without having to fight once in a while. i kicked a respectable amount off pua’s in the face because they didn’t know the meaning off the words fuck off. mate guarding a 10 girlfriend can be a handfull. between 2000 and 2005 there was this explosion off pua’s in my city and often they would grab girls by their arm or just don’t give up. sometimes they would even approach girls walking with their boyfriends. so basically all the hot girls had an absolute need for a boyfriend that can kick ass. i could hardly take a piss when going out or the pua’s would harass my girlfriend when i was gone for a min. so working out will have more effect if you’re trying to get with a 10 then trying to perfect your pua skills.

    12. there is no pick up secret that can turn a frog into a prince. you can learn some skills that are useful. you can unlearn some habits that are turn off’s. you can learn about female nature. but a male 5 will never pick up a female 10 using only slick talk. he needs to up his value in other ways to make her believe he’s worthy off her. like working out, dress good, make money, drive a nice car, have social status etcetera.

  9. i have my base in wado ryu karate. started age7. but i adopted other techniques from all over. Krav maga, mu thai, kung fu. i like to stick with the things that works. so if i have a opportunity to learn from a other fighter. i take it. after trying things out. i either adopt or discard the techniques. every style has it’s own pro’s and cons. you cant say one is the best. it’s very different in each situation, your opponents, your own limits. i hear a lot off people say Krav maga is the best but that’s not always treu. there are techniques to counter it. a very fast kick in the face can be the beginning and the end off a fight. or it could determine the outcome. it’s hard fighting when somebody just broke your nose and your eyes tear up. or a huge guy grabs you and just won’t let go. it’s hard to tell sometimes, specially when you mix and match styles. Krav maga is a lot easier to master then most other eastern styles. so if you just want to learn how to fuck somebody up. yes go for it.

  10. if you can spend 30 years perfecting your techniques then you could go for kung fu. it depends mostly on the participants. the time you want to spend practicing. your body. discipline. personal preference. if your a totally buffed and huge guy i wouldn’t recommend kung fu. if your a small skinny guy. kung fu could be right for you.

  11. as a kid i was very small. i only started growing faster when i reached puberty. my country has the tallest people in the world. so all the bully’s tended to be bigger and stronger then me. so wado really helped me because you learn how to use you’re opponents momentum and strength against them.

  12. about what women want. personally i dont think you should workout just for the women. i had some friends who tried that and they never seem to stick with it. they do it a month or 2 and then they drop out. i workout for me. the women are just a bonus. however i have to say that i never had trouble with women and i started working out at 7. so it might be a different experience for me. still i think men should focus on what they themselves want. women are not that important to me. they can be fun sometimes sure. but i dont want to waste to much time on them. how much time are you willing to spend for 5 seconds off lightning in your dick?

  13. correction: i never had trouble fucking women. the real trouble comes after i fuck them and they start talking about what they want from me and i say no.

  14. Alek, can you give an example of a guy that fits the C category. Obviously this person can never have cycled.

    1. Look at youtube discussions on how to recognize a true natty. Some of them go into research on what’s possible naturally.

      The same amount of muscularity that was found to be possible naturally, is roughly the same amount of muscle that can be defined as C.

      Very few women are attracted to a level of muscularity that’s not possible to get naturally.

    2. I just skimmed that video. I have my doubts that “Kinobody” is a natty. I think it’s safe to say that he’s at the very least using fat burners.

    3. Doesn’t matter if he’s natty himself while shooting the video or not (because of conditioning). That’s just the first video that popped up when i searched. Now that i am looking at it, it’s not very good. I assumed it’s the one I saw that went into the FFMI research (etc)

      His series on natty research is good (goes into studies on FFMI and how much ffmi is possible naturally). There are other videos covering (the ffmi stuff) too. Doesn’t matter whom you get the ffmi data from. (if the’re unrealistically lean or not).

    4. Oh nevermind, I misread that, you were talking about kinobody, not this guy (in this video). Yeah, many experts on nattyness doubt that kinobody is natural.

      His size is possible naturally, but his conditioning is very suspect. He did however put out a video claiming he only shoots videos/posts instagrams under correct lighting/water depletion to look swoler than he is.

      He even demonstrated by just changing the lighting how he can go from a “meh” look to a photoshop look, just by where he stands. It was pretty convincing.

    5. ” under correct lighting/water depletion ”

      And getting a pump. Which makes a huge difference. Chemically enhanced people look tighter even when they’re just relaxed and walking (standing) around.

      A natty can get a similar effect (albeit temporarily) by just pumping up those muscles and/or actively flexing while standing.

    6. “A natty can get a similar effect (albeit temporarily) by just pumping up those muscles and/or actively flexing while standing.”

      Done correctly, your unpumped state looks “soft” compared to how you appear after pumping, where it almost seems like your muscles are stretching your skin. In fact pumping can add half-inches and inches (temporarily) to your muscles. Many natties do pump before shooting videos/pics.

  15. Thanks for the link. I think Efron looks really impressive nowadays, especially if he truly is natural. I think I’d be happy with the Brad Pitt look personally, and far less work.

    1. Zac Efron a natural? That’s funny. Even Brad Pitt in Fight Club was on supplements.

    2. Actually the BradPitt (fightclub) look isn’t less work. He’s shredded… Keeping that level of bodyfat with that small of a muscular development is actually harder. (unless you’re a naturally superskinny guy). You’d feel like you’re starving every day.

      Being more muscular with a more realistically maintenable bodyfat is actually easier. (think 50-80% muscular development with a soft sixpack) versus brad pitt’s fightclub (20% muscular development and ripped)….

      Don’t forget the shirt-on look. The brad pitt fightclub physique in clothes looks emanciated/skinny, not fit.

    3. Actually the BradPitt (fightclub) look isn’t less work. He’s shredded… Keeping that level of bodyfat with that small of a muscular development is actually harder. (unless you’re a naturally superskinny guy).

      Or like Aaron suggested (supplementing with some unnatural things to help you keep that lean)… It would make no sense to do. Because that look is entirely un-notable in clothes. It only looks impressive with shirt-off.

      Whereas what Aaron suggests will look impressive with clothes on.
      (Basically the 80% of maximum muscular development with a modest focus on being lean – however lean you can get/maintain without obsessing about it)

  16. Well, now that you mention it Efron does look a suspicious. I’m just going by what the video said.

    And yes, Alek, I get what you’re saying about maintaining more muscle and body fat being easier. It’s hard for some people to have to shredded look, but like you said, I’m naturally very ectomorphic. I’m in my late 20’s and have never ever ever had trouble with gaining fat. No matter how lazy and unhealthy my dieting habits were.

    My thinking is that with 2 years of dedicated lifting, I could resemble more of the fight club look without having to worry too much about cardio and calorie restiriction. But there’s no way my body type would ever be able to get a level like where Efron is at right now. If I did manage to actually for once in my life gain a good bit of fat along the way, as long as it’s accompanied by muscle I’d be okay with that too.

    I’ve actually been interested with what the guys over at have to say about the subject, since 2 out of 3 of them were super slim to begin with. They claim no steroids.

    1. Basically, the more muscle you have, the easier it is to maintain a lower bodyfat percentage.

      – you with a buncha muscle at 10% bodyfat, have more total bodyfat (in pounds of fat) than you at 10% but with no muscle. It’s a percentage (a ratio) after all.

      My thinking is that with 2 years of dedicated lifting, I could resemble more of the fight club look

      You serious? That amount of muscle takes like 3-6 months of proper lifting to get for someone completely untrained. Why would it take you 2 years? You plan to fuck around?

      The reason his physique looks special is because of how lean he is. The amount of muscle is funny.

    2. Haha for sure? That’s pretty great news. What about Brad Pitt from Troy? If by fucking around you mean, lifting 2 to 3 times a week, eating just enough to gain, and taking a week off here and there to travel and stuff, then yes.

      So what are these fat burners Aaron speaks of? Not that I’m interested, but just curious. I’d imagine they’d be something similar to amphetamines.

    3. How about you fire up your favorite search engine and type “fat burners” or “fat burners bodybuilding”?

    4. If by fucking around you mean, lifting 2 to 3 times a week, eating just enough to gain, and taking a week off here and there to travel and stuff, then yes.

      Fucking around has nothing to do with frequency. You can fuck around 7 days a week in the gym.

    5. So what are these fat burners Aaron speaks of? Not that I’m interested, but just curious. I’d imagine they’d be something similar to amphetamines.

      I actually tried some bodybuilder stuff (i hung out with some bb-ers 7-8 years ago I think this was)… I can’t remember whether I tried Clen(buterol) or one of the other cutting chemicals… but it was super-scary how it worked…

      I started taking it (whatever it was)… I was like let’s do it for a few weeks just as an experiment. I was curious if it really is that powerful.

      And like (i shit you not… a week later) i had a shocking surprise when I was out at some club. As I’m talking to some girl I notice my pants are starting to drop… i’m like holy fuck what’s going on as I notice that my usually tight jeans feel baggy, i had to pull them up and go home.

      During this week I had eaten normally, didn’t do extra exercise of any kind. I didn’t even expect to see anything noticeable, it was just an experiment. I didn’t even plan to check for changes until 3 weeks had passed…

      But I found I had dropped something like 400-500% more weight than is possible naturally with even the strictest diets. I cut the experiment short right then and there. Scary stuff. I’d imagine most of hollywood is using stuff like this.

    6. Oh that’s interesting. I looked it up and it’s used as primarily as a bronchodilator. Trippy story, man! I’ll hopefully be able to report some good results with my training in the next year or so.

  17. Also, I get what you mean about how one appears with their clothes on, but anything has got to be better than having a BMI of 19. Quite a few years back when I did lift a ton and people started to notice, I’d wear really small shirts that would hug my 29 inch waist. And my shoulder circumference was getting pretty large so it looked good.

    I’m about 8 weeks from being done with my schooling and I can’t wait to get back into it. I hope muscle memory is a thing.

  18. I was talking with a guy that I work with yesterday whom is endomorphic. He was pretty overweight about 3 years ago, but managed to get really muscular in about a year and a half. Then he got interested in a career as a state trooper and had to drop a lot of weight. Right now, he looks more cut than I’ve ever seen him, but no where near shredded.

    Anyway, as we were talking, he asked me what my opinion was on what he was thinking of trying. Then he proceeded to show me the check out receipt on his phone where he had purchased some dianabol (sp?). I’m not sure how that stuff compares to like prop or hgh, but I just thought he was getting in over his head. When I asked him if he was gonna be taking it with anti-Es, he didn’t have a clue what I meant so I assume no.

    Anyway, the guy looks really strong and fit right now, even if he doesn’t have ripped six pack. I guess every serious lifter gets to the point where they contemplate going down that road, but I just don’t ever see myself trying it.

    1. Steroids are big business. A lot more people than you probably assume are on it. Even worse, you’ll easily find people who don’t necessarily look as if they are on the juice who are. An example are guys who are in a bulking phase, which hides their unnatural muscle growth under a thick layer of fat.

    2. I shared a link in an earlier discussion. Apparently the vast majority of steroids users are at the same size as well-trained naturals. In essence they’re risking bitch-tits, early death (etc) to just be lazy in the gym.

  19. just eat good healthy food. and work out. no pills or special diets needed. if you try to take shortcuts it will only backfire. you can easily help your hormones to a higher level by eating the right food and using natural oils. without all the unwanted side-effects. avoid any food and drinks that come in plastic. most plastics have female hormones in them that are released when they warm up. just avoiding female hormones in your food and drinks will make a big difference. don’t mess with your natural hormonal levels with pills or whatever other unnatural shit they want to sell you. they will give you fast results in the beginning but will give great problems later. they can mess your body up forever. these products are big bisness. they will tell you any lie they think you need to hear. dont believe it. most problems will manifest after you stop taking them. so just because they dont seem to have side-effects won’t mean you won’t get them later.

  20. dont starve yourself with a diet. if you try to force your body into losing weight in a unnatural way or by a diet it will backfire. your body will react by storing even more fat the moment it’s getting it again. that’s wy you get the jojo effect. just eat healthy food and work out. it will take some time and work but it will give you lasting results. you have to think long-term. making long term changes in your way off living is the only way to achieve long lasting results.

  21. @ alek novy
    What are some strength standards after 2 years of lifting for bench,deadlift, squat etc.. for a natural to meet the 90% of muscle?

    In so far after 7 months of training I can bench 195 for 3×8, deadlift 325 for 3×8, and squat 250 3×8. I initially weighed a 150 lbs at the start and now 190 lbs at 5’6. I noticed the more weight I gain the stronger I get but the caveat is I have to gain some fat of course.

    1. I wouldn’t know. I’m not exactly an expert on lifting weights. I’m just an expert on “applying occham’s razor to identify optimal ROI” (identifying the 20% that gives 80% of results).

      I have been on machines for years. Even professionals who live off of their physique will only do machines. Not getting injured with bars and dumbells requires mastering perfect form. To do it you need to hire a professional strength coach (not your local gym “trainer” but an actual expert training athletes). Once you do and you see how complex of a skill it is to learn to lift properly even one of those exercises… you’ll probably figure it’s not worth it.

      You have to spend a ton of money and time in private coaching with a lifting expert to master perfect form. And if you don’t expect to be a walking pile of injuries within a decade. Alternatively, machines are just fine.

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