Some days ago I promised writing a post on the dark side of picking up women. I think this is a topic that is hardly addressed. To be completely frank: I don’t think that what I am going to write about is applicable to your garden-variety PUA who is willing to fuck literally anything, and who tends to end up with women who are downright desperate. Instead, I am going to discuss the case of guys who are genuinely desirable by women.
Let me start with an anecdote: Some indefinite time ago, I met a young, fun, smart girl. I really enjoyed her company, and we had a great vibe going. On our second date, she ended up in my bed. I could now regale you with stories of her supple body, but let me just say that she really made an effort to please me. Afterwards, she rested her head on my chest, and caressed my body with her finger tips. We had some nice pillow talk. At one point, though, she lifted her head up, looked me in the eyes and asked me, with a curious tone, whether I had a girlfriend. Truthfully, I declined. She seemed happy to hear that, and continued with, “So this means that I could be your girl!”
That was quite the bomb to drop.
How did I react? Well, I wasn’t really looking for a girlfriend, so I said that I didn’t think that this was such a good idea. This killed the mood completely. She froze up, and seemed to tear up a little. The next thing she said was that her parents were expecting her for dinner (at 4 pm?) and that she had to leave. That was that. I never saw her again.
Now you may say that I shouldn’t care about what some random girl thinks, and that it is her fault if a guy breaks her heart. That is one side of the story. The other, though, is that you will genuinely hurt some people, and it took me quite a while to realize this. In all honesty, it took me a long time because I wasn’t looking to make an emotional connection.
Your opinion of women may very well be negative. This does not change the fact that you are dealing with a live human being. She may be your 50th or 60th woman. Yet, she may really like you, and you may be the first, second, or third guy she feel some kind of emotional connection with. However, as long as your interactions focus primarily on sex, this may not even occur to you because the number of women you have had a genuine emotional connection with may be zero. From my personal perspective, I can say that even though I have met a rather large number of women, the number of women I have genuinely become emotionally attached to is a grand total of — wait for it! — one.
It may flatter your ego if you get a girl who is completely into you, but if this feeling is not mutual and all you want to get out of the interaction is sex, you will cause anger and resentment. As a consequence, I would recommend that you should not have sex with women who are infatuated with you, if you only view them as objects, because there are plenty of women around who will want to only use you for sex.
I’m having just such a moment right now. I feel really sad…
I was hooking up with this 19 year old who’s super smart (she’s top in class in most difficult medical university). She looks like (and trains to be) a fitness model. And she’s just all-around generally cool person. I would be hanging out with her even if weren’t for hooking up…
The first month or so, she accepted the “we’re just friends who also happen to have sex” thing… she even did the whole thing they do where she’s like “Oh of course, i’m not looking for anything serious either, hehe, why would you even think I was… who has time for that commitment stuff heh, i just want non-committed sex”.
And then it happened… This week she got hurt, she started distancing herself… I could see the pain in her eyes. She has to distance herself and always be on the opposite side of the room, because she admitted she wants more, she developed feelings.
She hasn’t cried, but she looks like she might any second i’m around. And seeing her hurt (being such a cool person, an actual smart, great human being)… it did hurt me too. I’ve been sad all day today just thinking about it.
… I don’t feel like this about random chicks though. Women who aren’t going anywhere in life, i don’t feel empathy for because they thought they could nab a guy by banging him… But in situations like this one… I almost feel as sad as the girl.
*-We move in the same circles, as with 95% of my lays, they happen from “niche”, i.e. I am well known in a niche, and 95% of my lays are from girls whom I’ve seen before, and most will keep seeing me after the lay, sometimes for years on end.
Someone in the other area asked “So why do you even hook up in the first place, why not go to hookers, why hurt girls”.
For someone to ask that question, he must not have enough experience with how girls get hurt. When you get to the point where you are attractive enough to be pursued by girls… you hurt them just as much by REJECTING THEM UPFRONT.
Like what are we supposed to do, stay at home, and not leave the house? Because a girl who’s super into you… If you don’t take her up on the offer… she’s often just as hurt… It’s still a rejection.
Doesn’t matter if you have sex first and then reject her for commitment. Or you reject her upfront and don’t even let her get to sex. It’s still a rejection.
Girls can tell when you “can, but won’t”. Like if she’s showing you all the interest and shit, and you’re not pulling the trigger… she can tell it’s because you’ve decided not to. She knows you’re not inexperienced or scared.
When you reject a girl because “you don’t want to hurt her by only having sex”… she gets hurt too. So it’s a kind of a paradox. Unless you become unattractive on purpose and pretend to be completely asexual, you’re going to hurt those girls.
Whether you do it before or after sex isn’t that much of a difference… Yes yes yes i know that it’s worse after sex… but then again not for all… and you’re still hurting them… so…
One issue, though, is that the amount of emotional damage you inflict will be greater if you progress the relationship. She’ll probably get rather quickly over you not wanting to date her, but hang out with her for a few weeks, including regular sex — yes, even when you tell her that you are not interested in anything serious — and she’ll get hurt pretty badly. Yarara recently made the point that he tells the girls upfront that he is not willing to commit. However, quite a few girls don’t take your word for it, and will get very attached to you regardless, and hope that you’ll change your mind.
Alek,
On a side note, may I ask what your “niche” is? It’s a concept I’m still wrapping my head around.
It’s true, I did not mean to imply you will never hurt anyone, to some girls the warning may be like an End User License Agreement…. you know, that stuff you agree to but never really read when you install any software?
But being straightforward from the start reduces the chances of it happening. And if a girl gets attached anyway, at least the responsibility is on her, the disclaimer was there.
While I dont have a sign hanging from my neck that says “Just Sex No Commitment”, my disclaimer generally runs along the lines of:
1) had relationships, ended bad, dont want to do that again,
2) my work does not allow me to have a relationship as I am travelling constantly and/or…
3) i have been enjoying the attention of several girls recently. <- if she knows you are a player she knows what she is getting into.
That’s like asking “what’s your pickup line”… It’s not about the words. Read minimal game. In it Aaron goes over how he did it with a certain scene.
Alek, I did read it. Twice. I just can’t see how exluding yourself from so many women by dressing to be part of a niche is worth making yourself (maybe) more attractive to a niche group. To me just being “stylish” and dressing well should be enough to increase your overall odds. Was just asking you to get another clear example other than just Aaron’s.
I didn’t get any examples other than Aaron’s . I feel like you’re making excuses for not applying the information you already have by looking for more examples and information.
Hint: If the only thing you got from aaron’s book is “dress to fit the niche” then you failed. Read it a third time. Or book a consultation with Aaron:
http://blog.aaronsleazy.com/index.php/coaching/
Let me qualify my response so I don’t seem so rude. I’ve shared hundreds of examples over the years about how this works in practice. It’s scattered over the comments on the old blog.
My entire method is inspired on what Aaron talked about. I came up with a lot of the specifics by filling in the blanks using common sense. I’ve shared 100% of my understandings over the comments.
If I went and compiled all of it for you it would be the equivalent of compiling a book for publication. But I don’t intend to publish a book, so I won’t go through the effort. You have 3 options. 2 of them are free.
1) go study the forums and comments section to compile the full system. All the specifics you might ever need have been shared by either Aaron or some of the other posters and commenters.
2) Try to understand Aaron’s philosophy, big picture about “specializing in a scene” and use deductive reasoning and fill in the blanks. That’s what I did.
3) To save time book a consultation with Aaron.
About women getting hurt… to me this whole discussion is very very very very sexist. When someone says “You shouldn’t have sex with women, because they might get hurt by you not wanting to marry them”.
The first thing I ask is… Do you tell girls “don’t flirt with or hang out with guys, coz you might hurt him when he finds out he’s in the friendzone”.
The fact is that in mating, guys get 99% of the rejection getting and hurt/pain receiving. It isn’t just in the initial stages (initial approach, asking out, first moves) where men get 99.9% of the rejections…
Even in relationships, marriage, women are in a majority of cases the ones doing the rejecting (inflicting emotional hurt through rejection if you must deem it that way).
So on a planet where men are getting 99.9% of the mating rejection… Someone comes in and tells guys “You know, you should go bang hookers, because a woman’s emotions are so precious she needs to be shielded from knowing she’s not good enough for a relationship with the kinds of guys she fantasizes about nabbing”.
That is VERY SEXIST. It assumes women are some sort of supreme race of beings that need to be shielded from bad emotions. You don’t see these same people going to women and saying “Don’t ever hang out with or go on a date with a guy unless you plan on banging him every which way… go buy a gigolo to give you attention and support, don’t friendzone guys”.
When a guy hangs out with a girl for months, and then sees her go bang the guitar player of a no-name band in the bathroom … he’s just as hurt. He’s invested months, sometimes years being by her side.
You know, the prototypical “friendzoned” guy. But in HIS CASE these same people BLAME THE GUY. They say it’s his fault for knowing you can’t buy sexual attraction. He’s stupid for feeling he’s owed a sexual relationship just for being around her and giving her gifts and attention and support for so long.
They DISMISS his pain and hurt.
But if a woman keeps giving sex to a player secretly hoping to get sex… oh no no no, suddenly the logic no longer applies. Suddenly he’s the bad one because SHE pretended to do one thing, but secretly hoped for another.
Exact opposite logic than in the friendzone situation. Funny how that works. Logic reverses anytime you need to make woman victim, man bad.
FUCKING BE CONSISTENT PEOPLE.
No woman owes no man sex.
But no man owes no woman a relationship either.
Fucking be consistent people. Oh, and in a world where women dish out far more rejection than they take in. This whole bullshit about “we need to protect women from reality and feedback” – fuck off, seriously fuck off.
If a woman is consistently ending up with guys who never want to go further than sex (but she does), that’s rejection. It’s feedback. Just like rejection is feedback for guys. Just like rejected job applications are feedback.
It might me that she’s over-estimating herself. She’s a 6 but secretly thinks she can manipulate a 9 guy into committing by pretending to “only want casual sex”.
Why do you have empathy for her, but not for the “Friendzone guy” who pretends to be a friend secretly hoping the girl will fuck him? Exact same fucking situation.
Be fucking consistent.
You wouldn’t tell her this, because IN ORDER to find the right guy she has to flirt.
Yes, the side-effect is she’ll lead on a few guys… But if you tell her NOT TO FLIRT WITH ANYONE (to protect guys from rejection/being lead on), you’re also telling her to never meet the right guy either!
It’s the same with this fucking imbecillic suggestion “Don’t have sex with chicks, coz you won’t marry all of them”. For a guy, having sex is like testing the features of a girl. Just like for a woman flirting is testing the features of a guy.
If you tell a guy to never bang chicks unless he is certain he’ll settle with one. You’re forgetting two things
a) Even players get into relationships now and then
b) some women DO just want casual sex
You’re telling him to give up on A&B, so as to not hurt the chicks who are lying and manipulative (pretending to want sex, but really wanting more). He can not find the chick he’ll be serious with unless he has sex (trials) a couple of girls.
The quality of the girl you pick GOES UP the more choice you have, and the more samples you’ve had. JUST LIKE A GIRL has more options if she trials/samples more guys (flirts with them, gets guys chasing etc).
ITS THE EXACT SAME THING you sexist morons. But you don’t tell girls “go hire gigolos, and don’t flirt with guys” and “don’t practice getting guys to ask you out, chase you” … etc…
This pretty much sums up what I thought when I read this blog- and found it somewhat surprising that the points in the blog weren’t balanced out with “the other side”- points mentioned in Alek’s comment.
One point you forget to mention though is that girls are notorious for assembling a whole group of orbiters- which is nothing but a bunch of guys with varying levels of feelings for the girl- which the girl continues to lead on and lead on and lead on. In my own experience and opinion this is way more “emotionally difficult” then a girl being honest and just clearly letting you know the lay of the land, and that it is never going to happen between you.
And as you mention it is quite common to comment on this that the guys should know better- this point is totally fair, it is 100% on the guys for not walking away (same as it is 100% on the girl for not walking away, if a guy acts similarily)- but not mentioning girls behavoiur in this context I do not find fair given, as Alek points out, how much people point fingers day and night at guys behavoiur, and that building a staple of orbiters is primarily a female behavoiur.
It can be quite hard to walk away when girls keep on baiting you in as soon as they notice you pulling away, if one has feelings for the girl…
Though I can totally see the appeal; having a bunch of hot girls at my beck and call, showering me in their attention and so on…
In my personal experience plus observing friends, girls are way less considerate to guys emotions then guys are towards girls emotions, in general. This seems to be based on the general “guys should be tough” idea that is pervasive, I would guess, in all of the worlds cultures (while if a girl can’t have the cookie she wants, then poor girl).
It is also worth noting- that in a study where they measured the intensity of feelings girls and guys experience when exposed to some cind of lovy dovy relationshippy cind of stimuli- it was the guys who experienced the most intense emotions- not the girls. Eventhough the researchers seemed surprised by this- I find it pretty obvious- Why? Well girls pretty much don’t do anything else then think and talk and dream and read and write about relationships and so on from they are little girls- if you are familiar with basic psychology and how habituation and exposure therapy works then the above results would be quite obvious. It is pretty much the reverse of guys not getting that excited about having sex with a girl because guys in general have watched more porn than girls- and girls having a hard time living up to the stimulation of watching 10 model quality chicks getting gangbanged in every hole…
The craziness of double standars between guys and girls was very nicely portrayed in a reality tv show a couple years back- there was this girl who wanted to fuck a guy- and she had feelings for him. The guy wasn’t interested in her or sex with her and simply communicated this- result?, all of the girls in the show more or less tried to pressure the guy into having sex with her, because poor girl who didn’t get to have sex with a guy when she wanted to. Almost as if it was uncool or wrong of a guy to reject the advances of a girl. Think of the reverse scenario where a bunch of guys follow a girl around trying to pressure her into having sex with some guy she rejected, all of this is of course utter lunacy, but when girls behave like this it’s as if nobody notices.
And also girls in general are way harsher when they reject guys, it seems that girls perceive it as totaly socially acceptable to act like a bitch as soon as a guy comes over and tries to talk to her.
Where I live this behaviour starts at around 7 or 8 o’clock any day of the week- like a reverse cindarella story where girls suddenly go from being normal human beings and at the hit of the clock magically transforming into some cind of appalling, crazy, foaming at the mouth, gargoylian monstrosity. (I’m in the romantic mood tonight)
But yeah in general I think it is cool to try to be considerate, but I dont think it is balanced to be totally ocd about other peoples emotions either.
Ok so I read your post again, and obviuosly you write quite a bit about orbiters, only that you didn’t mention how girls seem to often intentionally collect whole groups of these guys, and bait them back in when/if they try to pull away… (sorry for repeating some of the stuff you wrote- it was a long post and I had just meditated so I think I just cind of zoned out while reading and writing…)
I don’t blame women for making use of the opportunity. I do blame those hypocritical double-standard hypocrities for not being consistent.
– A guy having sex with many different women before settling increase his options and chances of choosing a better mate
– A girl building up a throve of orbiters increases her options as well
They’re equivalent mating strategies. My issue is with people pointing fingers at guys, but being ok with the female equivalents of the things they bash men for.
Yep, it’s just a scientific fact. Guys get hure more than girls. YET WE KEEP hearing about how it’s guys’ moral duty to make women’s lives EVEN EASIER. Even more comfortable, even more pain-free…
Even though guys (as a collective) are experiencing way more hurt, pain, rejection, bad emotions (etc) in dating than women. But apparently women are the victims ™.
Every hypocritical bastard promoting this bullshit is free to fuck off.
Yep. I think that balance is hit when a guy is upfront. As long as you’re upfront, and tell them upfront that you’re only in it for the sex, not offering anything more… You’ve hit upon that balanced ground where you’re at the point of being moral.
This bullshit about “yeah but what if she is still secretly hoping” and you’re supposed to be responsible for women’s emotions… DESPITE THE FACT THESE SAME PEOPLE don’t say women should be responsible for men. Fucking utter bullshit.
If we applied this logic to life (you’re responsible for fulfilling other people’s fantasies/dreams about you)… then you would be “ammoral” if you did anything except give everyone everything they asked for. You’d have no boundaries and just work for free, sleep under a bridge, and spend 24/7 a day doing free chores and favors for people.
Yes it’s a lovely paradox; women are equal and independent and perfectly able to make their own choices, unless there is a man in the vicinity to blame…
Or more succinctly; girls are able to choose, but not take responsibility (seems the only way to understand this double-standard).
“The fact is that in mating, guys get 99% of the rejection getting and hurt/pain receiving. It isn’t just in the initial stages (initial approach, asking out, first moves) where men get 99.9% of the rejections…”
Most people would tell you this:
“B-but Alek, dudes are supposed to be strong, confident and self-assured, and if some guy takes rejection so seriously and painfully is because he’s a fucking sissy crybaby who needs to man-up!!! In dating it’s the dude’s duty to make the moves, because OBVIOUSLY no girl must make moves or she’ll be labeled as a sloot! Stop whining!”
Yep, I’ve heard and read that tons of times. On how you, because you’re a guy, are supposed to not to feel bad because some girl gives you shit, or because she betrayed your feelings. After all, you’re a dude! You’re so lucky for being a braindead ape who only thinks in sex! Or at least that’s what a lot of women thinks. In the end, just like has been repeated again and again, girls always end fucking those very fuckbois and douchebags they claim to hate.
In my point of view, my niche is very transient. One day it is one thing and the other it is another thing. Sure, clubs are my niche broadly speaking but, I don’t go to any place saying this is my niche where I pickup women. Which is a bit odd if don’t do that. But I do meet women pretty much everywhere. Lately, I have had more women from my social circle than anywhere else. So, that is my niche now.
I like your two responses, a lot, Alek.
How do you deal with a possible objection that a girl might be pregnant after having sex with a guy, thus his rejection to commit afterwards might deal more damage to her than a girl rejects a guy after using him as a toy just for her egoistic needs and amusement without offering sex? After all, the former results in either abortion, failure to deliver the kids or the girl raising her child without a father, while there is not much repercussions in the latter, except for emotional wounds and feeling of betrayal.
Alek, seems I’ve hit a tender spot with my comment.
Thing is, guys who orbit girls like that are usually not straight forward and don’t even admit they are into her. On the other hand, my objection was to guys that have sex with girls but don’t explicitly state they are only doing it for sex and may even manipulate the girl without any wish to enter a relationship because they genuinely like the girl.
Concerning the female mating strategy of building a throve of orbiters. Don’t you think this can backfire A LOT on the girl?
I mean, if I notice a girl constantly looking for male attention, I don’t really view her as relationship material. I sure would bang her, but I would be more cautious of entering a relationship with her.
I can see how the male equivalent would have more success though, but don’t you think it could have the same drawback as in the female scenario mentioned above?